Tyson versus Dempsey

Lewis still wasnt in his fighting prime, just as Tyson wasnt in his when he lost to Holyfield.
"General perception" is not the way to measure a fighters ability at any point. As it turned out, Lewis was not the polished fighter he became, his record of consistency would go onto prove that in future fights. Same goes for Tyson, he wasnt the same fighter he had been because he was easily beaten by a washed up fighter.

In my opinion, a fighters prime can be better established after his career when a level of consistency can be measured rather than one or two signifcant wins in a string of inconsistency. As we've been proven over and over, one win, no matter how spectacular, is not a measure of consistency or how great a fighter is. Consistency is, against a consistent level of opposition, and Lewis was inconsistent against the better fighters leading up the Mcall loss, the same level of fighters he would have years of domination over.

 

Well, I probably disagree with you on the degree of difference in Lewis from 1994, to say 1997. Or the consistency thing.
But it's not really relevant to my "system" (or criteria) for the rating of these fighters generally.

The question is : should this fight count in assessing the fighter's overall greatness/ability ?

Once a fighter has established himself as a good world elite fighter he's going to be judged on his performances.
(Until such a time where he's past it to the point where he's dropping right out of the world class.)

Those are my criteria, and I apply them to everyone. And if i don't, I should !

Otherwise we could find ourselves at a point where we narrow a fighter down to a single fight (his absolute best), and declare everything else irrelevant.

 

I dont know how you could disagree. He was getting knocked around the ring and knocked out against a level of guys he would go onto dominant for a long period.

It should be because theres a big difference between guys like Mike Dixon and Ossie Ocasio and Frank Bruno and Razor Ruddock.

I think so to some extent, but its not the telling factor of a fighters ability when he reaches his pinnacle. I dont think Lewis would have struggled as much with Ray Mercer and Frank Bruno had those fights happened after a few years of tutelage under Steward. The Mcall fight was proven. Lewis simply had to have a gameplan against Mcall.

No not in all cases. Lewis hadnt fully established himself as an elite fighter in my opinion and a lot of people felt the same way regardless of his W's.

If you were a matchmaker you would have a very short career.

The level of consistency is what establishes a fighters realstic ability. Such as the case with Riddick Bowe, he proved he was an elite fighter by his level of consistency up to and a good time after the Holyfield fights it wasnt a fluke upset. We didnt go around calling Oliver Mcall a great fighter because he knocked out Lennox Lewis same goes for Douglas. Had Mcall or Douglas gone onto dominate the division and retain their titles then that would have created a level of consistency to revulaute their careers, no?

 

Not a criticism but I think even that is harsh TBH I can't even count it as a real fight - neither man would been trying to hurt the other guy and both knew there was no real danger of getting hurt - Dempsey knew not to go all out and seemingly the navymen at ringside spent most of the time howling at phatso willie slapping and running while Dempsey just trying not to end up looking too embarrassed - it was not a real fight end of END OF - a real fight was Benn-Mccllennan not phatso wille meehan a navy mascot cum cartoon character against the best slugger in the west for charity

 

Seems like it was taken more seriously than you let on.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=3613,2745939&dq=dempsey+willie+meehan&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=1096,3069658&dq=dempsey+willie+meehan&hl=en

 

He destroyed Razor Ruddock, who was rated as high as anyone else he ever fought after, except Holyfield.
He beat Frank Bruno in 7 rounds.
He dominated Tony Tucker over 12 rounds.
He handled Gary Mason quite easily.

Shannon Briggs knocked him flying in 1998, Mavrovic gave him a fight in '98, Mercer gave him hell in '96, Rahman knocked him out for the count in '01 ......

..... that's why i disagree with your assertion that he was very inconsistent up to '94, and very dominant afterwards. I just don't buy it.

I do agree he improved though.

Which fights do you identify as Lewis's peak period then ?

You'll have to explain.
Bowe "struggled" with Tubbs and Biggs (who Lewis made short work of) on his way up.

That's the difference between career accomplishments and peak ability.
Of course, Lewis had to win a lot of fights to have GREAT accomplishments, but that's no proof that his peak ability far exceeded his ability in the Ruddock fight, for example.

You might as well argue that Muhammad Ali was not fighting at the level of his greatness for the Liston fights, because he had no record of consistency at that point.

 

Yeah, I've read them too.

It tarnished his standing as the 'champion in waiting'. He lost.
The one article is a bit hyperbolic to say he's "no longer a contender" though.

 

It took Dempsey a string of KO's to regain his reputation though after he was already seen as the logical contender for Willard's title by demolishing Fulton in 20 seconds.

 

He was losing to Bruno and struggling badly. Dominating Tony Tucker wsa not a big feat as was beating Mason. Hardly a comparison to his mid 90's run.

No comparison to the Bruno fight and Mcall debacle. Mvarovic lost a UD I wouldnt say he gave him a fight but more gave him problems with movement which was expected.

Lewis showed consistent improvement when Steward took over up to the Rahman loss. Thats far longer period than three or four fights leading up to the Mcall loss.
You'll have to explain.

Ive posted the Bowe fight. Bowe hardly struggled with Tubbs and Biggs in my opinion but you can make that call on your own. Regardless I was referring to Bowes win over Holyfield and subsequent fights after not his career 18 fights in. Although he lost to Holyfield in the second fight, it was close enough to realize he was the goods. He wasnt knocked out by a fringe contender.

The Mercer fight up to the Rahman loss. The Mercer fight was a tough win but clearly a growing experience from which he got better.

Sure it does, because he approached the Mcall fight the same way he approached Ruddock, and that was bombs away. He wasnt capable of fighting a disciplined well balance fight, and thats part of the completion of a fighter.

He wasnt because as I said, one great win is not the level of a fighters ability, thats why "styles make fights", and until a fighter shows a level of consistency against a variety of styles, you cant make a proper assessment as to their ability. Thats why Lewis blew out Ruddock but struggled against Bruno, who wasnt considered the animal Ruddock was at the time.

 

Dempsey's best and only chance would be if he was still in there after six or so rounds,then he would take it. Otherwise,Tyson early.

 

I think Bruno gives any version of Lewis hell.

So :
Mercer, McCall, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Mavrovic, Holyfield x2, Grant, Botha and Tua .....

.... half of those names are no better than a 34 year-old Tucker or Gary Mason, who you dismiss. Some of those performances were pedestrian.
Beating McCall is surely an improvement, granted. Lewis improved, but he was still knockoutable, as Rahman showed.
The Lewis who destroyed Ruddock would have destroyed Grant and Golota and Botha.
Holyfield is the only fighter who was a level above.

.... but Lewis was knocked out by a fringe contender in 2001 too, a fight that is sandwiched between two of his most mature good performances.

As for Bowe, his post-Holyfield resume is not outstanding at all.

..... and there's no evidence that he'd ever be much better against Bruno.

 

Tyson was not large, plodding slugger .. he was lightning fast and a terrific two handed slugger ... I truly believe he takes Dempsey out in either the first or second round ... way too fast, strong and hard hitting ... simply a terrible match up for Jack who would be giving up a good thirty pounds ...

 

How do we know what Tyson would have done with Meehan ?

Meehan went 4 rounds with Fred Fulton, Sam Langford and Harry Wills, as well as Jack Dempsey.

He was obviously no mug.