Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

The 15 round weight limit does not result in the difference between a cruiserweight and a heavyweight.

As said before, Tyson's fight with Biggs was scheduled for 15 rounds and he came in at a trim 216 pounds. Ali had to fight 15 rounds all the time yet was 212+lb.

 

You clearly used the 80's as an example. In the 1980's, 15 round fights were still in effect, at least up until around 1987. There were many heavyweights and cruisers who were well conditioned and capable of going 15 rounds.

That depends on how well trained they'd be. A fighter like Evander Holyfield, had to put on a significant amount of weight in order to be competitive in the heavyweight divsion, but most of the pounds were muscle, with little water or excess bagage. If fitz or Rock were making such a jump, they would likely have to do the same, or they may find themselves at a disadvantage.

 

There is always a lag time between the rule set changing and training regime adapting to it.

Marciano was basicaly a throwback to the era of the 45 round fight. His training regime was more like that of Fitzsimmons or Jeffries than Ali or Frazier.

Joe Louis had a training regime perhaps more natural to the 20 round era than the 15 round era. A distence for which some of his fights were scheduled.

Tyson to my mind was the last of the champions who trained the 15 round way despit the fact that only one of his fights was scheduled for that distence. Holyfield was probably the first true 12 round champion.

Dont underestimate the importance of all this roadwork. If you walked 40 miles in a day you could lose more than a stone despite eating and hydrating yourself regularly. It would take you 48 hours to get it back.

Now if a fighter is runing 12 miles a day for more than two months and steping up to 16 in the last two weeks he is going to be a human greyhound.

 

How so?

You already explained how Marciano's and Louis's training regimens were similar to that of earlier eras, but what about guys like Patterson, Frazier, Johansen, Ali, and Holmes?

How was Holyfield the first true 15 round champion?

 

I think he meant 12 round.

 

Cross Trainer is correct.

I meant to say that Holyfield was the first heavyweight champion to use what I would consider to be the typical 12 round regime.

 

Maybe Marciano could bulk up a bit, but i strongly doubt he'd be able to carry more than 200lb without big consequences. People for some reason think anyone can do it succesfully just because one man managed to do it succesfully (Holyfield). We can only go by what we know, which is that Marciano hated to be over 190lb because he felt out of shape.


I don't really understand your last question because i'm unfamilair with some slang - did you mean whether Tyson wanted to have a 15 round fight?
In that case, i doubt he liked it.

On the other hand, he did have that boyish appreciation for old school fighters (courtesy of d'Amato) who went 15 rounds or more. And he sound very proud of himself after going 10 rounds for the first time. So who knows.

 

There is some truth in this, but you do realise that from roughly the 50's/60's, new generations grew a lot bigger on average due to improved nutrition. This resulted in a much larger talent pool over 200lb and as a consequence, the cruiserweight division was created to make things fair again as sub 200lb fighters were rarely competitive at top level again.

 

He was about 240lbs. in the comp fight, but you could see he was out of shape. Do you know what weight Tyson was at in the beginning of training camp? About 250lbs.

Tyson was bigger, period.:good

 

There are a number of factors at work here-

1. An increase in the average size of the population.

2. A general reduction in the talent pool from which champions are drawn.

3. Changes in training regimes due to changing rule set.

Between these factors you get what you get.

 

It's time for a reality check here. Rocky never faced an opponent like Tyson. In his prime Mike was a vicious punching elusive fighter with blazing hand speed. His combinations were light years faster than Rocky's and his chin was every bit as good. Mike took shots from very big HW's like Lewis and Douglas and other good punchers like Holyfield. Mike was never dropped by one shot early in a fight but rather fell after taking dozens of hard flush shots over the course of a fight. Big tall rangy fighters gave Mike the hardest fights. Men who could fight from the outside behind a jab. A fighter of Rocky's size and style would be fodder for Tyson. Too small and too slow. And let's face it, if Walcott and Moore could drop Rocky, then Mike could too. Marciano fought in an era that was perfect for a fighter of his ilk. In Mike he would he would be facing a modern athlete,big and fast. This fight would not go more than 4 rounds. Mike would jump on the much slower Marciano and land fast hard punches on his smaller foe. Rocky was never hit by the hard fast combos that Mike threw and Mikes upper body and head movement would enable him to avoid pnches from his short armed opponent. This is'nt a rap on Rocky but we have to put aside nostalgia and make logical assesments.