Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

I think tyson would probably try to KO marciano in the first few rounds. Because of his hand speed, and great combinations, he would also be ahead of marciano. But Rocky's chin is granite. And he is practiacally impervious to pain. Tyson would then start to wear out and panic. Marciano threw every punch with incredible power, so i see some popped blood vessels in tysons arms. THen tyson starts to throw less, and marciano throws more. I just cant see this going the distance. Ko8-9 for marciano.Dont forget the computer fight lol.

 

Yeah, but at his best, Tyson didn't weight that much more than 215. Marciano weighing 195 wasn't out of the question...and, even if he came in at 190, that's not that much of a difference. The key factor isn't size...it's whether Marciano can deal with Tyson's speed advantage for the first six or sevn rounds, and do enough damage in the interim to slow down Tyson for a later-rounds surge.

Marciano wasn't unskilled, and, he proved that he could deal with a speed disadvanatge in fights with Charles and Lastarza, but, it's pretty much a given that he'd be shipping some heavy punishment in the early portion of the fight. So, it comes down to who refs the fight. If we assume a modern referee, then it's likely that Tyson scores a stoppage. It we assume a 50's ref, then Marciano may well make it into the later rounds- more out of sheer stubborness than anything else.

If he does, and the fight's scheduled for fifteen, then I could see him winning the fight in the championship rounds. But, those are a lot of "ifs", so it's understandable while people think Tyson wins outright.

 

Tyson never faced a fighter that could fight at the pace Rocky could and could hit with 2 hands for 15 rds either and Rocky had heart and condition + Super WILL, they were the same height and Tyson feeling Rockys power early would also be a deterent to just wade in, Rocky would be there with both guns loaded

 

But lets face it: Rocky's old-school, come-forward style is tailor made for Tyson. Sure he'd let his hands go, and also leave himself open for counter-punch after counter-punch. You can't slug and go to toe-toe with a prime Tyson and win.

 

I dunno. Marciano wasn't completely without defensive ability, and could counter-punch if so inclined. Plus, if he got in close, he could smother some of Tyson's punching power. If he goes balls-out, Marciano eats more incoming than he might be able to handle, but, if he utilises an intelligent game plan, he'd have a shot of making it to the later rounds...when he would have the best shot of turning the fight in his favor.

 

What you don't seem to get your head around here is that if it goues past four rounds (admitedly this is a big if) then the fight will go more and more towards Marciano with every round that passes.

As Tysons workrate falls off Marcianos will pick up and he will almost seem to come on stronger and the fight progresses. Tyson would go from controling the fight, to being on even terms to being outworked. If both men are standing in the last round he might find himself facing a barage of 120 punches in that round alone.

Some people have argued that Marciano is virtualy unbeatable over 15 rounds and there is a grain of truth to this.

 

Even if it goes past 4 rounds, Marciano will be beaten much-much worse than he ever had been in any of his fights, so that's a VERY BIG if that he'd be able to increase his workrate or have any workrate at all, rather than just clinch at every opportunity trying to survive.

 

You´re right, but it would be also the other way. Tyson never faced an opponent like Marciano, who had the similar pysical stature, who threw every single punch with devasting power, who trew so many punches per round, etc., in fantasy matchups there are always big "if´s"...

 

I repeat, that Marciano didn't throw that many punches consistently in his bouts. In many bouts his workrate was only decent, but nothing exceptional. When an opponent is standing in front of him and throwing little punches that may hurt him, Marciano increased his workrate, such as him battering Archie Moore who was just defending himself and not throwing back. Those are more like an exception than a tendency in Marciano's bouts.

 

Marciano threw always power-punches, therefore he threw a lot...

 

Some punchstats, posted by Herny Hascup some time ago:


So I watched the 1st Walcott bout and I counted 19 clinches in the 1st round,
17 in the 2nd and 10 in the 3rd. After that it was a lot less, BUT there
were still plenty of clinches.

Also, it was stated that Rocky never stopped punching, well I counted just
the punches he threw, not the punches he landed, as he did miss a lot, and
found out this:

Round 1 - 28 punches
Round 2 - 34 punches
Round 3 - 35 punches
Round 4 - 40 punches
Round 5 was not filmed
Round 6 - 45 punches
Round 7 - 25 punches
Round 8 - 23 punches
Round 9 - 36 punches
Round 10 - 43 punches
Round 11 - 36 punches
Round 12 - 28 punches

Total – 11 Rounds – 373 Punches – Average 33.9 Punches Per Round

I didn't include Round #13, BUT Rocky threw 6 punches in that round,
including the last two, a Great Right Cross, and a Left Hook.

I could be off by a few, but this is pretty close.



Marciano against Lastarza, here's just the pnches that Rocky threw during the bout.

Round 1 - 27 punches
Round 2 - 32 punches
Round 3 - 34 punches
Round 4 - 37 punches
Round 5 - 44 punches
Round 6 - 37 punches
Round 7 - 65 punches
Round 8 - 56 punches
Round 9 - 75 punches
Round 10 - 45 punches
Round 11 - 31 punches

Rocky threw approx. 452 punches in the 1st 10 rounds. In round #7,
Rocky was warned for the 5th time, for either hitting low, butting or
hitting on the break.

After the 1st 6 rounds, Judge: Barnes had it 5-1 Lastarza, Judge:
Susskind had it 4-2 for Lastarza and Ref: Goldstein had it 3-3 even.
The 6th round was taken away from Rocky because of low blows.

The score at the time of the stoppage was Referee: Ruby Goldstein 7-3 |
Judge: Arthur Susskind 6-4 | Judge: Harold Barnes 5-5 all for Rocky.

Also the Announcer kept saying that Lastarza lost 3 pounds the day before
the bout and that might have made him weaker.

I only did a few rounds in the 1st Charles bout:
Round 1 - 24 punches
Round 4 - 28 punches
Round 6 - 85 punches
Round 10 - 65 punches
Round 15 - 86 punches

 

Average number of punches thrown by modern heavyweights, according to compubox varied accross the years from 46 to 49, with 19-20 of those being jabs.

 

Thanks Chris. I have been meaning to do somethig like that myself, but I've been to lazy.
This will provide some interesting insights for sure.

Incidently, some of the 5th was filmed, because I have it at home. It's only about 30 seconds of round 5, but I just thought I'd mention it.

 

Do you see a difference in the punchstats in the first Charles fight compared to the first Walcott fight? He threw a lot more punches in the Charles fight, which validates the story that Goldman started to turn Rocky into more of a volume puncher around this time in his career.