Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

You must recognise that there is a big qualatative gulf between the people Marciano was knocing out and those that Shavers or Tua were knocking out.

 

Marciano did kayo some legitimate heavyweights, though, and it's fair to say that he'd have the capability of kayoing Tyson if he landed right...or, often enough in the later rounds. It's just a matter of whether he'd be able to make it through to the later rounds.

 

Marciano seemed to have two styles: the one-punch knockout artist that fought and knocked out Louis (2 punches), Layne (1 punch) and Walcott (2 punches although 1 was enough), who threw about 35-45 punches a round.

Then there was the wear-you-down Marciano of the Charles, Cockel and Moore fights, who threw 60++ punches and even more than that when he had you in trouble.

 

I'd still bet a 16th ranked heavyweight of the 1990s can take a better punch than a light-heavyweight from the 1940s.

 

I totally agree. But i'm in the 'I don't think it'd go past six camp'.

 

Then you would be somewhat misguided.

Even if the big skins that Tua knocked out could take a better punch than sombody like Moore or Walcott (which I doubt), they would certainly be a lot easier to hit cleanly and often.

 

This is my observation also.

 

Actually, one could make a good case that Marciano is pound for pound the greatest knockout artist in the history of the sport. He scored 43 knockouts in 49 fights, the second highest percentage (behind Zarate) in the Hall-of-Fame. He has the top knockout percentage of any heavyweight champion, despite being a relatively small heavyweight who gave up an average of 7.5 lbs to all his opponents in which a weight is listed and 9 lbs to his rated opponents. He fought 5 men who weighed over 210 lbs (each of whom outweighed him by over 25 lbs and 15% of his body weight) and knocked all five out, three in the first round. He fought 11 men who weighed over 200 lbs and knocked all of them out. Uniquely among big punchers, his power did not fail him against better opposition. In 16 fights against men rated at one time or another by Ring Magazine, he scored 14 knockouts and knocked all of them out in the initial bout or a return. He scored 26 knockouts by the 3rd round or earlier and 33 knockouts by the 6th round or earlier.
In comparision, Sonny Liston also scored 33 knockouts by the sixth round or earlier. Earnie Shavers scored 6 knockouts in 17 bouts against rated opponents.
Let's look at his last 14 fights.
1. Layne--dropped for count in 6 early in round after one minute rest period by one right hand.
2. Beshore--dropped for count in 4th.
3. Louis--knocked through ropes in 8th. Did not look like he could have beaten count. Referee stopped fight without count so corner could administer to Louis. Only second time Louis knocked out and Marciano showed more power than any of Louis' other opponents, as Louis himself stated.
4. Savold--fights defensively and makes Marciano miss a lot, but is battered into bloody hulk and sent to hospital by body punches. Retires after 6th round. Perhaps Marciano's poorest showing.
5. Buonavino--Dropped in 2nd for count.
6. Reynolds--Dropped in 3rd for count.
7. Matthews--Dropped in 2nd by double left hooks for count. Only time Matthews was ever counted out in over 100 fights.
8. Walcott--Dropped for count by right in 13th shortly after one-minute rest.
9. Walcott--Dropped for count in 1st by right uppercut.
10. LaStarza--the elusive LaStarza gets to the 11th before being knocked out of the ring. Referee stops bout. I guess this could be put down as a less impressive performance, but LaStarza had never been stopped.
11. Charles--goes 15, fighting defensively in latter rounds.
12. Charles--dropped for count in 8th. Probably one of less impressive knockouts, but still put former champion down for count for only second time in his career.
13. Cockell--battered through fight, put down in 8th and twice in 9th before ref stops bout with Cockell floundering. Again lesser performance, but dominates #2 contender and British Empire champion.
14. Moore--dropped 5 times and knocked out in 9th. The 32 year old Marciano is showing signs of going back but still decisively defeats Moore who was on a tremendous winning streak.

Totals. 14 straight victories, 13 stoppages, 9 countouts. Lennox Lewis had 8 countouts in his career.

 

What does that list have to do with being a KO artist? Someone who doesn't need to wear an opponent down by volumes of punches before finishing them with one or two punches?

 

How worn down was Walcott in the second fight or Matthews? Even Layne and Walcott in the first fight were taken out by single punches.

Marciano scored, as I pointed out, 26 knockouts within the first three rounds. How can you really argue he was wearing people down? This is nonsense. Where you are going wrong is that someone like Shavers only scores early knockouts for the most part. If the fight drags on, his power begins to wane. Marciano could knock a man out early, knock a man out in the middle rounds, and knock a man out late. If a man was elusive, he was able to the pressure on until he could slow the man down enough with body work to get over a clean shot to the jaw. How can that be interpreted as not having a punch? And I would also point out that men like Marciano or Louis or Moore, because they carried their power well into the later rounds, could pace a fight. All were dangerous from first bell to last.

And if having a greater knockout percentage against general opposition and rated fighters does not prove one a "knockout artist", what does?

 

Great arguments and facts you´re coming with, OLD FOGEY! Really hard to counter here now...

 

Did I say anything about 1st Walcott fight? 2nd Walcott fight was clearly a mistake on Walcott's part, not a "taken out".
Aggressive volume punches do score plenty of knockouts in the first several rounds, I gave Nigel Benn as an example. Or take Joe Frazier. But that's not because they have some superior punching power. Or take Vitali Klitschko, as a different example, plenty of knockouts in the first several rounds and overall a very impressive KO record, but only a fool would call him a KO artist.
I didn't claim Marciano didn't have a punch, I claimed that he didn't have a one-punch KO power for most part (with few bouts as exceptions).
Having great KO percentage in that heavyweight division means little to me, as it was very weak and filled with blown up light-heavyweights, or old fighters.

 

Well, how many one-punch knockouts did Liston score? Or Dempsey? Obviously some, but unless you provide some sort of comparision with other fighters, your criticism of Marciano as a puncher is floating argument without any grounding in reality. I know of no fighter who scored nothing but one-punch knockouts and even a majority of one-punch knockouts.

We are back, I see, to the lightheavyweights. What proof can you give that lightheavies or ex-lightheavies were easier to knock out than the 210 plus types. Was this true for Dempsey? Marciano? Louis? Thompson?

Personally, I think there is something to big men being able to punch, on average, harder than smaller men. I see no historical evidence that big men can take a punch better. Can you produce some?

Walcott in the second fight lost track of the count after he took a punch. How can you be certain the punch had nothing to do with that?

 

Did I call Liston or Dempsey KO-artists? Did I claim somewhere that Marciano wasn't a puncher? Did I claim that nobody who doesn't score only one-punch knockouts, deserves to be called a KO artist?
Light-heavies were harder to catch, often, but as for chin, in modern epoch there are few light-heavyweights who came to be successful at heavyweights, this is more than enough proof of that. Plus, there's a tendency in general accross the rest of the weight divisions that fighters who looked to have a great chin at lower weight, when they moved to heavier divisions they became more vulnerable.
Walcott looked perfectly well during the count and after the count was over, it was clear that he wasn't hurt much by a punch, it surprised him more than it hurt him and he could have easily continued had he not lost attention about the count.

 

No one on here is more misguided than you. You've got small man syndrome (in more ways than one). Moore for a start was sparked by Patterson, who being 'little' himself yo-yo'd his way through the heavyweight division. Then again, maybe you're right and a 5ft 10 185 Ib guy will rule the heavyweight division once again.