Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

I don't think you're reading that post in context- the guy wasn't stating his original argument; he was retorting someone else's post which had used very similarly poor arguments and showing how they could be just as easily reversed on Tyson.

 

Conteh, I have read many of your posts on both the boxing and the lounge threads. So I know that you're not really this fugginstoopid.

I agree that Charles was arguably Rocky's best win, and while both he and Spinks were arguably over-blown light heavies; Charles didn't come in those fights FORTY pounds over his best weight and with braces on both knees.

MY post was written in the context of CM Clay's. I didn't see you pointing out the same inconsistency in styles of Tyson and Walcott in his post. Tyson wouldn't try to box Marciano on outside anymore than the Rock would try to stick and move against him.

"context", you can look it up: www.dictionary.com
You're welcome...

 

mid round ko for iron mike

 

I don't think Spinks would have had a sniff of winning the heavyweight title had he not come in around or over 200 pounds. It was that extra weight that gave him a chance against Holmes, without sacrificing too much speed. In the rematch Holmes pushed him around a bit more and was more physical, resulting in a deserved 'win' in most people's eyes. Likewise, Holyfield probably wouldn't have beaten Bowe if he hadn't put on extra poundage for the rematch and elected a different strategy, after being beaten fairly easily first time around. Another difference is that Charles gave The Rock two good fights, Spinks was mashed.

Fair enough. Sorry I didn't see that. Clay's an arse at the best of times.

This bit makes you sound like a ****. The comparison was weak, context or no context.

 

Chris, I will the same thing to you as I said to Conteh. Post like you got a fuggin brain in your head and please don't take things out of context.

I don't agree that Fitzsimmons couldn't hurt Marciano anymore than I agree that he couldn't hurt Tyson. Fitz had freak power; not once in a lifetime - ONCE! Anyone who doesn't understand that should be banned from the Classic forum.

Douglas' style differs from Marciano's in much the same way that Walcott's differ's from Tyson's (a hint - context). IF someone thinks that Tyson would try to out-slick Marciano with stick and move tactics, they should say so.

And I wasn't aware that heavyweight and heavyweight were two different weight classes.

You talk about how "Tyson beat the big guys". How many all-time greats in their prime did Tyson defeat? Zero.

AND on the other hand, how many all-time greats in their prime did Marciano defeat? Zero.

Match two short squat power punchers. One is shorter, has a shorter reach, fights lower, has better in-fighting skills, a better chin, and more heart. IMO it almost laughable how easy it is to pick the winner.

IF someone thinks Tyson would stop him in the first round, they should say so. I SAY that is Tyson ONLY chance to win.

 

1) How much of a chance did Spinks have coming into the Tyson fight 40 lbs over his best and with two bum knees?

And now Bowe-Holy 1 was easy win for Bowe? How can your posts in the Lounge be so insightful and these here be so idiotic?

2) I quoted Clay in my own post. You claim you didn't see it? "Fair enough" or the "comparison was weak"? IF you can't make up your mind from one paragraph to the next, you probably shouldn't be casually tossing around the word "****"...

 

Right, that is Marciano's side of the story.

Here is Tyson's side of the story: Both are squat power punchers, but i am 30 lbs bigger, faster hands, have a proven chin against skilled 230lb+ punchers as well as power against the same group of fighters. Marciano has more heart than me but watch how Walcott had no trouble landing right hands on a cold, slow Marciano in the first round, up to the knockdown. I would finish him right there and then and heart would not come into the equation as much as it does in long wars.


The truth? probably somewhere in between. :good

 

Well, 915 pounds was when Payne was still young, and I might have been exaggerating a bit to imply he was that light. It's my understanding that the Sumo wrestlers were ducking him, so he had to resort to Shamu wrestling. Payne was about 6'2" standing up, and 6'10" lying on his back. (His belly protruded so far forward beyond his head that nobody had enough of a reach to hit his chin.)

In 1983, he was the National Golden Gloves Super Duper Ultra Heavyweight Champion. His idols as a child were Fat Albert and Haystacks Calhoun.



Seriously, Payne could be a miserable opponent to try taking on. The last time I saw him on television, was against Rocky Sekorski, in a match broadcast by Al Albert and Sean O'Grady. He came in at 295, with a record of 10-3-1, and Albert asked O'Grady how he could possibly be competitive over 12 rounds in that kind of condition. (Payne was 286 when he dropped a 12 round split decision to Needles Thomas the year before, Pinko's final career win.) O'Grady explained that Payne was simply very relaxed during competition, so he didn't get tired.

For five rounds, Payne didn't do much of anything, but it was obvious he was biding his time for some sort of opening. It came when Sekorski was circling the perimeter of the ring with his hands down. Payne just leaned forward, and flicked a light looking long right up into Sekorski's solar plexus, sending Rocky down as if he'd been shot, face scrunched up in a grimace of excruciating agony, and paralyzing Sekorski for considerably more time than the referee needed to complete his count.

In bringing his record to 11-3-0, Payne reached the high water mark of his professional career. He went 1-17 for the remainder of his time in boxing, but get this; his one win was a six round TKO over 12-0 Tongan Sampson Po'uha, who at 6'2" himself actually outweighed Payne by a pound, 298-297.

During Payne's career ending 12 bout losing streak, he managed to go the distance with Barkley (dropping an eight round MD), Big Joe Thomas, Tillis, and 20-0-0 Shannon Briggs.

Considering the fact that he beat Tyson and Teo Stevenson as an amateur, it's shuddering to think of what he might have achieved with the slightest modicum of fitness, when taking into account the obscene measure of natural boxing skill he possessed.

 

...and one is 30 pounds heavier and probably faster. The only thing that's that laughable are your posts gobshite.

 

Well, score wise it was about 116-112 (scored by myself, a Holy fan) and Bowe looked the winner from the off. You must have been watching a different fight to me and the judges.

 

I meant I could understand you coming down to Clay's level for that particualr post but, in all honesty, it appears you genuinely meant it.

 

Are trying to tell us that you don't understand the difference between fighting back to win and fighting back to survive? Biggs, Thomas, Berbick and Tubbs weren't intimidated until they got hit the first time. Biggs and Thomas barely made it out of the first round. Berbick and Tubbs didn't make it out of the second.

Smith and Tucker both fought scared against Tyson. And the difficulty he had with Bruno (1st) and Ruddock (both) was evidence of his downward slide as a fighter.

Now were they bums? While these fighters were not tomato cans, most of them wasted their potential with laziness and drugging.

Biggs almost couldn't handle Jeff Simms and David Bey. And Tucker was getting his @ss kicked until Buster ran out of gas.

Was Holmes in his prime and did Cooney ever have one?

If you're gonna make an argument in favor of Tyson, at least concoct one that makes sense.

 

IF you're saying that Tyson would stop him in the first round, say it outright.

I am saying that Tyson is the one who would be getting backed up AND I am saying that the fight wouldn't have to get to the later rounds for heart to become a determining factor. Tyson with his fast hands would land at least one bomb in the first round, but Marciano would grit his teeth and return fire.

Marciano was mentally tougher than Tyson. He was always fighting to win. Foreman said it best, "Tyson is used to fighting as a predator. He is not used to fighting against a predator."