Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Well,

as I said before, we can't make solid assumptions about how fighters form different eras would do against one another, but we can study styles, habits, physical traits and compare opponents.

Marciano was a very tough heavyweight who might have found himself at a physical disadvantage against a lot of other champions throughout the ages. He was significantly smaller, and had the tendency to cut and swell rather easily. He had some good handspeed, but was not not particularly known for his quickness. His defense was decent, but he was still prone to getting hit a lot. Most of his opponents had quality experience and good name recognition, but quite a few of them were post 35, and some coming from other divisions. Rocky showed that he had some good power in beating these guys, but he had to do so over an extended period of rounds, and took many shots in the process. This is not a luxury that he would have had against, say a Foreman. He did not win the title until his 42th pro fight, and did not face that many great fighters in the early half of his career. I hate to say it, but one might even suggest that his record was a tad padded.

Although I firmly believe that any heavyweight can beat any heavyweight, I just don't see Marciano matching up well with Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Holmes, Ali or even a peak prime Louis. His legacy was right up there with the best of them, but head to head is a difficult outcome to favour Rocky in against those guys.

 

Why doesn't Marciano match up well against Frazier? I'm not trying to start an argument, just curious.

 

In all fairness, I think Marciano would have a good chance at beating Frazier. I will say however, that neither man ever fought someone of the same style or similar physical description, therefore it would be a new experience for both men. I think Frazier might have the edge being slightly bigger and having quicker handspeed. Plus have you ever seen a heavyweight in your life who had the rate of upper body movement that Frazier had? I certainly haven't.

I see Frazier as having the edge, but I say this with no real conviction.

 

I belive the Rock hammers Holmes personal. Fraizer is a toss up. Same with Tyson imo. I think if Rocky gets by the Liston jab, he could make a hell of a fight out of it, and perhaps Liston will fall. Louis is more of a harder fight to win.

 

If that's what females breast feed babies in your part of the world, where can I buy a ticket?:hootersbeer

 

This is where I disagree, Foreman had a record vs nobody's until he fought a shot Frazier and avoided LIL Jerry Quarry,Remember the Lyle fight and Lyle was no puncher like Rocky and did not have Rockys heart. Ali had trouble with shorter guys and Marciano would be on him with body punches and arm shots to bring down the resistance. Holmes did not fight the best of his era and was very open to the right,Marciano had one of the best and for 15 rounds, Frazier tough in his prime but open to Rocky right hand,Prime for Prime, Rocky 2 fisted Frazier had one hand.Liston and Tyson had an early punchers chance but folded under adversity. Anyone could beat anyone but all of these guys would be facing a different animal that they ever faced in Marciano. To compare Foremans fight with Frazier and say he would have done the same thing to Rocky would be like saying, Foreman would KO an overweight Qwawi early because he was 5"7 or Lyle as fast as Norton because he was 6"3. These are all different men, who rose to greatness in there era's for different reasons. I am not saying Marciano was superman but there was no Superman in any era and to discount him like some do here is a complete travesty. Head to Head, man to Man, Marciano was qualified to fight anyone, and EVERYONE of these all time great had there weaknesses

 

Tyson Was A Front Runner. That Is, If He Thought You Were Tougher Than He Was, He Became Intimidated. He Was Not Apprehensive If You Were More Talented Than Him But Be Was If He Thought You Were Tougher.

He Knew Marciano Was A Lot Tougher And Marciano Would Have Knocked Him Out In About 6 Or 7 Rounds.

A Good Case In Point Would Be Holyfield. Tyson Knew Holyfield Was Not Intimidated By Anyone And Holyfield Took Tyson Apart Twice.

 

Most top fighters, particularly when they're undefeated and/or on top, think they're the best ever and no man can beat them. It's part of a fighter's psyche. Holyfield still thinks he's the best in the world and will be champion again.
What's really important is how a fighter's psyche holds up during the fight. And Tyson had a poor track record on that count for an elite-level heavyweight. He was mentally unstable from the first- note that he used to cry before his amateur fights and at one point wanted to quit between rounds in a fight in which he wasn't even in serious trouble because he was afraid he would lose. And of course all the quitting/breaking under pressure/going crazy and copping out of fights in his later career is exceedingly well-known.

In his peak years, Tyson's mental problems were hidden, because he was so physically dominant that no one pushed him to the point at which he would need to show great intangibles, to the point at which the fight becomes a battle of wills and attrition. In a contest of wills, I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt Marciano far outshines Tyson- the question is whether he can take the fight to the point at which Tyson will start to tire and his stamina and consistency will level things out, and his heart and relentlessness can carry him through to the victory, or whether Tyson's(extremely formidable) physical assets will allow him to dispose of Marciano before the fight can reach that stage.

On what basis does Tyson have a better chin than Marciano? Marciano was never knocked out, or even close to being knocked out, in any fight of any kind, even in the amateurs, and suffered only two extremely brief flash knockdowns in his entire boxing career. Tyson, on the other hand, was knocked out twice by Henry Tillman(not a huge puncher) as an amateur, was knocked out by Buster Douglas(not a huge puncher) as a pro, was stopped by Holyfield(not a huge puncher), and, while admittedly a shot fighter, was laid out by Lewis and Danny Williams. Tyson's chin is the more tested of the two against punchers, but not having faced much of a certain type of opponent is hardly cause to assume you can't handle them.

Read ChrisPontius' recent analysis of this idea in the "Marciano harder hitter than Lewis" thread- smaller gloves do not equal greater knockout power. They can lead to more superficial damage(eg. swelling/cutting), but the actual knockout power of a punch is more the blunt distribution of force in the appropriate area, and isn't really effected by slight variations in the padding of the glove.

 

There is one important caveat to that.

In a fight between two come forward fighters who work in overlaping zones intangibles come straight to the forefront of the matchup.

This fight could be tailor made to showcase the intangibles of the participants.

 

Let's see...when was Tyson hammered....knocked down...cut.....blinded for 3 rounds...behind on all scorecards...and yet,came back to win as all of the greats must do?...Oh Yeah,....NEVER!!!!

 

But it is.

They are evenly matched in height and reach. That means that Tyson must put himself in harms way to land his own shots unlike Foreman against Frazier. Make no mistake Marciano can do sickeing damage to anybody he can land on.

 

Well outside of Walcott 1, Charles 1, and perhaps the first LarSarza fight, Marciano hardly stuggle in his run to the title though.

I woulnt call the Cockell fight or Marciano Charles 2 stuggleing, as Marciano was well ahead when he score the knockouts in thsos bouts. Same goes for Moore.