Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

Look, I searched now for only a few seconds viá google, and look what I found, look at his skinny girlie-legs, and now say to me, where did he have a great genetic or **** like that? He started weight-lifting very early, and he had to train very hard to gain muscles, Tyson- nuthuggers comes often with that fabolous stories....

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Source of Cooney ever fighting as a middleweight in the pros?

 

You are a nuthugger, you're embarrassing. Don't you realise this bloke just wants to believe a peak Berbick lost to Ali because it makes the Marciano argument look stronger. You really are a tit. :good

 

He didn't. His pro debut vs Bill Jackon was at heavyweight. :good

 

Tyson takes this, by mid-round TKO.

 

He fought at midleweight as an amateur. Not if he was fighting in the 30s or 50s it is quite likley that he would have been fighting profesionaly at this stage.

 

And Thomas Hearns fought Pryor at lightweight, does that mean he was a blown-up lightweight as a pro?
The fact is Cooney never fought anywhere below heavyweight as a pro. Cockell started as a middleweight, and fought most of his career at or near the light-heavyweight limit, that was his best and natural weight, and he had no business in the heavy's if it weren't for the weakness of that weight division.

 

Basically, we have the immovavble object (Marciano) vs. the irresistble force (Tyson.)

Let's look at what we can pretty much say are concrete facts about both men:

*Tyson was an incredibly fast starter. Perhaps only Dempsey started as fast.
It was uncanny how quickly Tyson would find his groove in fights. No probing of defences, no exploratory jabs, no feeling out process. He pretty
much ripped into the oppositon from the get-go. It was often so overwhelming he scored many first-round KO's this way.

* Tyson's handspeed was phenomenal, and this combined with his blazing start was too hot to handle for many. His speed allowed him to land lead hooks or right hands on opponents or rattle off a three or four punch combo in the blink of an eye. It also provided him with many countering opportunities.

* Power. Tyson had it in spades. My personal standpoint is that he was naturally quite heavy-handed and fusing this together with his lightning speed gave him stunning punching ability. He had the sort of power that could knock an opponent down with even a grazing punch.

* Tyson had underrated defensive abilities. His reflexes were super sharp, and he could get under a quick jab in his sleep. In his prime, he was hit with only about a fistful of punches that landed flush and hard. (Bruno, Tucker, Smith come to mind)

*Tyson tended to fling himself into clinches too often. Tyson was a stop-start kind of fighter. He'd come at you, throw a volley of big punches, and initiate a clinch. The clinch was kind of like a reset button. Inside, Tyson did little. Once seperated, he'd be on 'offense' mode again. Until the next clinch.

*Such a fast start and high-energy output in the first few rounds had the drawback of Tyson losing some intensity and focus in the latter rounds. Nobody can keep up that sort of pace forever. That's not to say he was altogether ineffective late, but it's safe to say if one survived the first 8 rounds or so, one could say that most of Tyson's fury had been seen already.

*Even prime Mike could be frustrated and taken out of his game at times. We tend to sometimes paint the picture of an unbeatble monster who just rolled over everyone.
However, Smith (although having no intention of winning) managed to make Mike look rather ineffective and Thomas after barely surviving the first round, came back quite strongly in rounds 2-5. Certainly Tyson did not have it all his own way for a while there.
Tucker gave Tyson a good fight until self-preservation kicked in.
So, while a prime Tyson was a bit of a monster, he wasn't without flaws.



*Rocky had the mentality of: 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going.' The words 'lose' or 'quit' were not in Marciano's dictionary. He commented once that when Joe Walcott knocked him down he thought "Geez, this guy could knock me down five or six times tonight. It could be a tough fight."
That shows the Marciano mentality. Only after 5 or 6 knockdowns is it a tough fight. Yes, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek right now, but you get the idea.

* Marciano had an incredible punch output. Moore said that fighting Marciano is "like fighting a propeller." Marciano wasn't as slow a starter as is sometimes made out but nevertheless, if Compubox had existed those days, I would not be surprised to see Marciano's punch output increasing in the later rounds. He was just nonstop action. To boot, all his punches were hard punches; Rocky didn't know the meaning of 'soft'.

* Marciano had an underrated defense. Not to say he was Floyd Mayweather, but he wasn't always as sloppy or easy to hit as is made out. Even 'home-run Rocky' instantly went defensive when missing with a haymaker. He'd throw a bomb and if it missed, he ducked or leaned to the side, anticipating a counter-attack. Louis, Moore and Charles, all fine pinpoint punchers, commented that Marciano was more difficult to hit cleanly than people realized.

* Marciano's stamina is possibly the best ever at heavyweight. Certainly, only a few fighters come close in this regard. Not only did it allow him to throw hundreds of punches in a fight, but he also had late round KO power as a result. The overall effect of getting hit by hundreds of hard punches round after round without let up was too much for well, all of his opponents. Great stamina is also beneficial in taking hard punches and evading punches. Basically, you can do everything better when you're not tired.

* Marciano tended to cut later in his career. Not a bleeder per se, but better opponents did seem to be able to slice him up some, notably Louis, Walcott and Charles. (excluding the nose cut in the second Charles fight.)

*Although Marciano did become more and more refined during his career, he never quite shook off the sloppiness altogether. The Moore knockdown was directly as a result of Marciano lunging in and being on one foot precisely at the moment when Moore hit him.
One reporter even went to far as to say Marciano "fought like a gorilla" in the first Charles match.

* Marciano just wasn't big. 5'10", 185-190 pounds, 67 inch reach. Not a small man by normal standards, but against big heavyweights his numbers just aren't impressive.

Those are what we can safely say are pretty much fact. What we don't know is what gloves they are using, what ruleset they are fighting under and who the ref will be.
Will the ref allow the fighters to work inside, or will he break them quickly? Is he a disciplinarian who will strictly enforce the rules or will he allow Tyson and Rocky (both not exacly gentlemen in the ring) to throw the odd elbow, punch after the bell or low blow?
These unknowns can make a huge difference in the outcome.

The really big 'X factor' for me (and possibly the thing on which the whole fight hinges) is whether Marciano can survive the real 'danger rounds' (1-6) against Tyson. It may seem odd to ask, considering this is Rocky Marciano after all who takes a back seat to nobody, but Tyson was such an immense offensive machine early on that Rocco has no choice but to perhaps try and survive early on, and take Tyson into the later rounds where he is usually less dangerous.

Thing is, how does a guy who constantly comes forward and who has never ever given ground to any man suddenly learn to become more defensive? How do you teach someone who relies on wearing the other man down to suddenly change his inherent nature?
One may ask if Rocky needs to, but I'd say yes. Tyson's strong points are apparent early, Marciano's more late in a fight. Only a fool would engage Tyson at his own game when he is at his most dangerous. If Marciano chugs forward and starts throwing bombs, his going to come off worst. Tyson's handpseed alone gives him a decided edge. He will find Marciano's chin and probably with more regularity than Marciano would like. Slugging with Tyson gets Mike the knockout he wants.

So, Marciano needs to be more defensive, but perhaps he isn't altogether badly equipped to do so. For one thing, Rocky is short, and by constantly bobbing and making himself a smaller target, Tyson may find it hard to hit anything other than the top of Rocky'd head or body.

Secondly, Marciano doesn't want to go backwards. That's a mistake. Lateral movement or going straight backwards is going to play into Tyson's hands as it gives him punching room. Marciano needs to crowd Mike and get inside his straight right and left hook.
Then and only then, does he go to work. Basically, don't fight when Tyson fighting, and fight when Tyson wants to rest. Bang him downstairs in the clinches. Take him out of his reset period.

IF Rocky can survive and fight a canny fight for 5-7 rounds, he can gradually start applying more pressure and taking the fight to Tyson. I can reasonably assume that IF Rocky is still there and throwing back hard shots in the 8th, it will have quite a discouraging effect on Tyson.

History has pretty much proven that once Tyson has lost the momentum, he never regains it. Granted, he nearly pulled a rabbit out of the hat against Dougles, but that was one punch rather than a sustained comeback. Naturally, while Tyson is upright he is dangerous and Marciano will have to constantly guard against becoming too ambitious, but I have little doubt that the second half of the fight would belong to Marciano.

Ultimately though, I think the IF in this case is a little too big. Nobody Marciano fought ever had such a lethal combination of power and speed, not to mention ferocity. It was an overwhelming combination that very few men could ever deal with, and it usually took a very sound and brave strategic gameplan (Holyfield) or an absolutely stellar boxing performance (Douglas) to get the better of 'prime' Mike Tyson.

While Rocky's intangibles are usually Tyson kryptonite, I don't think physically Marciano is suited to making these intagibles work for him against Tyson.
I'd pick Tyson t win on knockout/stoppage between rounds 1-6.

For what it's worth, while it lasts Marciano will give it his all and come out of it with a ton of respect, and if Rocky was brought into the modern age he could possibly win.
As it stands though, the '88 Tyson beats the '56 Marciano.

 

:good :good :good EXCELLENT POST

 

Where was Walcott's and Charles' 'excellent stamina' in the fights between themselves? They were going at it rather slowly and lacklustre, as if fearing they wouldn't last the distance if they increased the tempo.

 

Walcott and Charles were mostly counter punchers, neither one was going to charge head first against each other. It was a styles thing.

 

While Tyson lacked intangibles, the fighters who got to him late had a very different style than Marciano did. Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis used skills, height, a superior jab, and solid clinching skills to foil Tyson late.

Marciano could not fight this way. In my opinion, Tyson beats Marciano to the punch. Rocky would have to take it, then come back. This is not a good match up for Rocky.


I would give Marciano a chance in the mid rounds if he’s still upright. With Tyson, he tended to slow down a bit round five and good shot could steal his heart.

Best Guess, Tyson via 3rd round TKO.