Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

They weren't circling much around each other, they were slugging out a lot at mid to close range. But were doing this at slow rate.

 

When you are talking size, I think age is more important than the fact that one turns pro in his mid-teens. Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Tunney, Schmeling, etc all competed below the heavyweight class at some point early in their amateur or pro careers. So what? People grow. Your argument that once a middle or lightheavy, always a middle or lightheavy, is simply not valid.
By the way, not to open a can of worms, but because of poorer nutrition, men once reached full growth at a much older age than currently. As a matter of fact, I think studies show children even reach puberty years earlier than they once did.

 

He's always talking about trim heavyweights would weigh so low (doesn't matter the age, as most of today's top heavys are 30 and older), so I'm using his own argument to point out that Cockell was supposed to weigh as a light heavyweight when he fought Marciano. He fought there, and with some effort he could keep that weight at 26 years old.

 

Good post.

And not to get off topic here, but the same principal applies to highschool and college athletes. A 17 year old kid who goes into college, often grows substatially during a four year period in both height and weight. What's more, it particularly becomes evident if proper nutritional and exercise guidelines are applied. I've known guys who graduated highschool at 5'10" and 160 Lbs, then four years later, stood 6'1", and weighed over 200. For some folks, there's a lot of physical maturing between ages 17 and 22.

 

He moved up to heavyweight because making 175 weakened him. There is no doubt that heavyweights are bigger now than they were in earlier eras, but a 190 to 200 lb man was a good sized heavyweight back then. Cockell felt confortable fighting over 200 lbs and could and did go 15 with that weight. What exactly is the problem? As has been pointed out, many recent heavies carry as much of a spare tire as Cockell did.

 

As you can look up, my original post was:

 

atsch Now I've heard everything.

 

His calves were never really that big, so I don't see what this picture proves.

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Remember this? Look at 13 year old Tyson. I guess he was taking steroids then, right? Even at that age he was bigger than Marciano, so how in the world are you gonna say Marciano was "naturally bigger" than Tyson?:-(

 

I know what he's tring to do, idiot. I was just pointing out something that I always thought that he mentioned. Mind your own business.

 

Yeah, that really was a ridiculous statement.


The funny thing is that you'll often first hear a Marciano worshipper say that size doesn't matter, he can overcome that, etc.

Fine, if that's your opinion then stick to it.

But then half an hour later they go on the most desperate attempt to prove that Marciano was not really small, that he was in fact a 250 pound monster but trained down to 185lb. Kind of shows that deep inside, beyond all that emotional attachement, they know damn well that size matters.

 

You understand that 180 lbs was a true heavyweight in that era. Charles, Marciano, and Patterson all won the championship weighing less than 185 lbs. "Modern" standards don't mean diddly because they were not fighting in the "modern" era. They were fighting in their own era. In the future the cut-off point for the heavyweight division might be something like 250 lbs. That does not mean Wlad Klitschko today is not a "real heavyweight."

As for Cockell, when was he exactly a middleweight? It would have had to be when he was only seventeen or something. By 19, he has a listed weight of 172 lbs. By 21 he is fighting at 183 lbs. He only makes the lightheavyweight limit for championship fights, the last at 23 and then goes way up in weight. I think in top shape he would have gone about 190 by the mid-fifties.

A whole slew of champions back in those days probably would have been lighter than Cockell at 21. Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Braddock, Charles, Marciano, and Patterson, for certain.

 

Exactly. If Tyson trained as hard as Marcino, maybe he would be 210 or something like that, but not less than 185 as Luigi said. Tyson already had a rigorous training regiment and was all natural at 215-217. He ran 7-10 miles a day and sparred many rounds as well as hitting the bag and skipping rope for long periods of time which builds up stamina as well.:good

 

Can you actualy find an instance of anybody on this board saying that size dose not matter?

It is an acusation often banded about by the bigger is better crew. Like the mythical Marciano fan who thinks that Rocky Marciano would beat anybody that the Marciano critics get so riled about, real examples are hard to find.

 

Like Rahman Lewis or Sanders Wlad.