Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

For ****s sake who cares,marciano still holds the record and will stay unbeaten for ever,so **** all the haters on him,he was a decent man and a fighter who was beyond brave,as far as i can see the main reason he gets hated on,is because of his colour,people skirt around it as much as they can,but its frigging obvious thats the reason,some black dudes cant accept he still holds the record, and beat up a older joe louis,well ****ing tough get over it,black fighters dominated the scene since up till late,so why not just get the hell over it.

 

If you followed the discussion in this topic, the size difference was being discussed at the time of my post. In particular, was Marciano really proven against big enough and powerful enough heavyweights as what he would be facing in Tyson. Literally, 180 pounds was indeed a heavyweight in that era. But in the context of the discussion and the matchup, a true heavyweight is someone who's natural weight is at least 200lb. So I was adressing an argument that the Cockell fight was any proof at all of Marciano's ability to handle modern heavyweight in Tyson. I also mentioned that that epoch was weak, well, you should be aware that such opinion was expressed during that time (perhaps even from early to mid 1940's).

As you should be able to see in my post, I didn't put much accent on the fact that he started as a middleweight. Instead I worded it as "a blown-up light heavyweight", and even clarified my words by guessing that his best weight should be about 180, give or take a few pounds.

June 10, 1952. Cockell weighs in at 174 1/2 pounds.
October 14, 1952. He weighs 201 1/2 pounds.
That's 4 months and 4 days. He gained 27 pounds, 19 pounds heavier than his maximum weight prior to that fight. If you think that was natural increase and it was caused just by age, then I don't know what else to say to this.

According to janitor, who I was replying to, he would not be in top shape at that weight. And he certainly wasn't in top shape for the Marciano fight either, being some 15 pounds above your guess at his best weight.

 

The Tyrell Biggs fight was originally scheduled for which he weighed in at a sharp 216 pounds. I doubt he could make 210 without cutting off a hand. He's been over 210lb every single time since he was 19 years old!

 

I believe that he was under 200 lbs in prison. Now it is possible in the 1930s to imagine a young tyson coming off the breadlines starting out at under 200 and growing into a heavyweight body.

 

I don't.

Walcott was reportedly very poor yet he was hardly anything lighter than he was during his days as champion when he did have money. In fact, his weight is exactly stable when compensating for the fact that fighters (and people in general) put on a few pounds from the age of 30 on.


If Tyson was 200lb in prison then he was severly malnourished and/or undertrained. What would it prove?! That his "prison weight" is 200lb? Big deal. His fighting weight is 215-220lb.

 

:good

 

Taking tyson as a raw untrained fighter we might expect him to start at 215 lbs work down to 200 and then build himself back up to 215 again swaping a soft 15 lbs for a solid 15 lbs.

In another era where he was underfed I can imagine him starting his fighting career at under 200 lbs having no excess whatsoever and then building up to 215.

 

Possible. Bottomline is that his prime fighting weight is between 215 and 220 pounds no matter how you look at it.

 

Prime fighting weight was a verry diferent concept in Tyson's day to Marciano's day.

The ideas of what constituted a proper training regime were somewhat different. Rightly or wrongly a much higher emphasis was placed on aerobic work in the 50s and fighters generaly came in like a well trained greyhound.

 

Actually janitor, young Tyson didn't have much to eat as a kid, but he still grew. Sometimes there would be nothing to eat in his house but flour and water and he still was about 190 as a 12 year old. (Not in fighting shape, but ripped and not fat):good

 

Although Tyson lived in a different "era", his training methods were taken from the old school, as his groomer, mentor, and father figure weas Cus D' Amato. Tyson did all the things that the old-time fighters did. That's what captivated the people's imagination. He had an old school style, old school training methods, even old school demeanor and ring apparel (Solid black trunks and shoes when others are donning more flashy togs)

 

You are a *****.

 

You are right to say that Tysons training methods were a lot more like Marcianos than any subsequent champions.

Even allowing for that their was a lot more emphasis on getting weight low pre 1960 than post 1960. I am not saying that this obsesion with coming in as low as possible was necisarily right.

 

Quarry beat the crap out of you, Spencer!

 

I think prime Tyson got it as low as he could with out it becoming a liability. At that time he walked around at about 250-260lbs, so he did train down so to speak for his fights, weighing in at about 215-218.