Tyson vs. Marciano: The myth of "intagibles"

I wouldn't disagree that Marciano would have a very difficult time if one assumes Tyson would have been just as large in the 1950's. But would he have been? Nutrition, medical care, prenatal nutrition for mothers, etc, has changed so much that these men lived in different worlds. Tyson was not a big heavyweight for his era. He was frequently outweighed. He would have been a giant in Marciano's world. But, don't forget, Marciano would have been a much bigger heavyweight in earlier eras. He would have been a pretty good sized man in the 1880's, for example.
Tyson and Marciano are two of the minority examples of smaller than average (for their own eras) heavyweights, along with Dempsey, who managed to be dominant.

As for Cockell, he felt that he was drained and weak at 174 in 1952. Certainly, I would expect he would be in better shape if he kept his weight around 190 or so. But it is hard to argue with success. He won ten straight heavyweight fights carrying the extra pounds. Maybe the extra weight did not effect his stamina that much and any loss of speed was offset by being harder to handle in clinches.
Be that as it may, you are correct that beating Cockell proves less than nothing concerning a fantasy matchup with Tyson.

 

WTF are you and Clay talking about? What desperate things? It´s a forum, nothing more, I looked for a Marciano-pic shortly after his boxing career and I found this one:

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On this one he weighed way more than 200 lbs, but it´s not like he had just a fat belly or something like that. He was naturally a heavy guy who built quickly mass, he showed this after his career. Like I always wrote, size and weight is an advantage, nothing more. I´m just tired to hear and read from Tyson- nuthuggers that he was such a natural big muscled guy when it wasn´t so. He was naturally not bigger than Marciano (and he fought 3 decades later), that´s the fact. One thing I would like to say yet: When you guys don´t know **** about bodybuilding/ gaining muscles/ genetic things or anything like that, than just STFU or informate yourself before you post something...

 

Marciano wasn't a small man really. He'd look pretty darn small next to a Lewis or Klitschko sure, but then most do.
If you ask me, he was a natural 200 pounder who trained down to between 180-190. In his amateur days, he weighed mostly above 190.

Today, he'd weigh about 210 or so.

Still, Tyson is naturally heavier by about 20 to 25 pounds or so. Perhaps not a massive difference, but still a difference.

 

Wow, so he looks 200lb+ next to someone 5'6 150lb when he's years into retirement.
If bringing that up is not desperate, then i don't know what is. Why don't you stop talking about "Marciano is naturally bigger" and face the FACTS:
Tyson's fighting weight was 215-220lb. Marciano's fighting weight was 185-190lb. That's a 30lb weight advantage.

 

What is here desperate when I´m getting angry when people talk who had probably never a barbell in their hand? This pic is some months after his retirement old, not "some years" like you wrote. Did you know in what weight Marciano came in for the sparring with Ali for the computer- fight for example?

 

I have had a barbell in my hand, but that's not relevant here.

Do you know what weight Marciano came in for his peak fights against Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott? And do you know what weight Mike Tyson came in at in his peak fights against Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks?

 

Do you agree that if Marciano had been brought alomg in the late 80s he would probably have been heavier than 185-190 lbs simply due to the diference in training regime?

 

There is always the possibility that through modern training techniques and nutritional guidlines, Marciano could have very conceivably weighed 200 Lbs or more. The other possibility however, is that he may have chosen to stay at 185 Lbs, and fought at cruiserweight, given that this was what he perceived as his best and most comfortable fight weight, as well as having a chance to win a world title without facing much larger and stronger opponents.

Also think about what you're saying for a moment. You clearly suggested that had he been brought along in the 1980's using a different training regimen, that he might be better suited for fighting in a modern era. I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but is this an implication that you feel modern training techniques and methods are somewhat superior to that of previous eras?

 

Marciano doesn't need an extra 10-20 pounds to beat all the men he could beat in hypothetical match-ups. 185 was his optimum fighting weight.

Had he been brought up in the 80's, even if he was involved with all the same trainers from his title reign, there's a huge possibility that he would not have fought in the way he was famous for anyway so technically the discussion would be for naught. The simplest and most effective way to gauge the merits of both men's fighting styles would be to pit the Marciano of the 1950's against Tyson of the late 1980's.

 

Yep, my sentiments exactly.