Tyson Vs The 60's And 70's

Yeah and which atg did liston really beat? Floyd patterson may have been a good heavyweight, but atg heavyweight i dont think so.

Larry Holmes beat an atg heavyweight? I dont recall this ever happening?

I would hardly call 4 years such a short prime, i mean how long did george foreman's prime last? Sonny liston fans say his prime was like 4 years max. Joe Frazier wasnt exactly known to have a long career either.

 

Is there anyone ever that you'd actually pick Tyson over with a teeny bit of conviction Sonny? You seem to find ways of giving any silly mug a good chance against him. I can't believe anyone could give Norton such a good rap against him.

 

:roll:

 

A prime Tyson would beat lots of good fighters.

If you think Liston, Ali, Holmes, Frazier and Foreman are silly mugs then that's up to you. Those are the guys I'm picking over him.

I give Norton a chance for the reasons I describe, his style is hard to predict and I dont think he's chinny.
Shavers was a murderous puncher so I give him a chance.
I'd make Tyson a favourite over both of them, but I wouldn't be shocked by the upset.

None of these guys are "silly mugs" so I'm not sure what you're on about.

 

Tyson is a top 5 heavy. He challenges everyone, and shines in any era! I would favor him to be champion in the 60's and 70's, he is better than Jimmy Ellis, and Joe Frazier, and Ken Norton, and Sonny Liston, and Floyd Patterson, and Ingemar Johannson, so that is 6 champions from that era that he could easily beat. The others, Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali and Foreman are the only true tough test.

 

I'm talking of the chances you give guys like Norton, Shavers and Witherspoon.

You also said

99% of people know Norton freezes against big punchers that back him up. Foreman, Cooney, the limited Shavers. (Rumour has it Frazier owned him in the gym too, but i'll look deeper into that legend.) Past his best for two but the game remained the same. Whether chinny or not he was decimated against said fighters. Tyson has a more complete offensive game than any of them, is far far faster, and puts on more heat and pressure than all 3. He can also take a punch, not that Norton is any big one shot banger. A lucky punch will not save him or turn the bout. Stylistically Tyson is worse than any of these others, and he is multiple class levels above two of them. Norton would not know whether he was coming or going, and likely be out of there by round 2 if he somehow gets thru round 1.

Let me set my statements with some words from the immortal Eddie Futch, who knew more than a little about his fighter....

Eddie Futch

I found out something about Norton. He tightened up in front of punchers. I had him in with one puncher who showed that to me, Jose Luis Garcia. I thought Norton got a raw deal, because he got hit after the bell with a punch that stopped him. But even so, he wasn't himself throughout that fight. When he was with me, i never let him fight a Shavers. I never let him fight a guy who was a good puncher. The first fight after Norton and i split was against Foreman.

When you put Holmes in with guys like Shavers, he'd outbox them. But Norton tightened up. He tightened up against Foreman, and he tightened up against Cooney. Of course he was finished by the time he fought Cooney.

Norton was one of those fella's who had to avoid facing certain styles.

It appears it isn't so much the claim he can't fight backing up so much as he freezes vs said fighters.
You stated in the Hide - Dempsey thread anyone picking Hide must be joking. I could say similar of your assessment here. Norton has lots of history against him, whilst the smallest man to ever beat Hide was some 234 pounds, about 50 more than Jack. Some might argue Hide has more chance of beating Dempsey than Norton vs Tyson.

A fair comment, but one that is brought down to earth when we explore deeper.

Shavers had a shocking time vs top shelf fighters, because he quite simply is not that good a fighter. He is also chinny and has very suspect stamina. Tyson's defense will shut down Shavers in this one, he went for fights on end against faster and indeed better fighters than Shavers while not taking anything substancial. His defense is actually brilliant in these fights. He would get under Shavers punchers coming in and rap him hard and fast, and he doesn't need many punches to end the night for the chinny Earnie. I can't see Shavers landing a lucky punch, let alone a well manufactured one, but even if so i'd back Tyson to find his way home. Shavers can also be sluggish trying to finish and let a few foes off the hook much to his chargrin. He took some real bombs against Lewis and remained in decent condition. I like Earnie tho, and if we could dream match the two rest assured i'd be cheering for him

Well considering the odds would be about 15-1 and 8-1 you'd have to i reckon. I would be shocked tho to see either win, absolutely. I'm starting to wonder if peak James Tillis schooling Tyson would shock you to be honest. I'd also be inclined to suspect you might see Berbick as a real stylistic dilemna for Tyson if he never happened to have wiped the floor with him.

A bit strong perhaps, but along the right lines. Your opinion of Tyson as a fighter is always eye opening stuff tho, and i must admit that i enjoy the subtle sniping of him.

 

And just for some thinking i might be a Tyson hugger, i'll get in tune with the thread. Better make a contribution since i'm here scouring others lol

I'll start with the bottom dwellers.

Ron Lyle - I think he'd KO Lyle inside of 3.

Jimmy Young - i think Young is born to fall at Tysons feet, he's no big slow ponderous slugger and would actually be fast than Young. His blazing bombs and awkward angles would get Young out of there in 4. TERRIBLE match for Young IMO.

Ken Norton - KO1 or 2.

Earnie Shavers - KO1 or 2.

Joe Frazier - this one always baffles me. I feel good proclaiming it a toss up. One part of me see's Tyson getting him inside 3, but the other side tells me if he doesn't Frazier will eventually beat him down. For posterity i will assume it's Tyson's day, but with no real conviction.

George Foreman - i think Big Daddy will take Tyson out. He is the one man who WILL stop Tyson's forward movement at many stages and even if the fight gets past 4 i don't think Tyson will be any better off than Foreman. He's going to lose a lot of energy fighting Big Dad. Foreman by stoppage.

Sonny Liston - i hate this one too. My bone here is Sonny's speed and Tyson's brilliant defense. I'm just not certain Sonny can dish out enough heat to win, and we know Tyson's sure gonna land his share. Sonny's a bad arse tho so it's a tough choice. Can Sonny take Tyson's shots? I think for Sonny to win he has to let his hands go at mid range when Tyson does, just like Holyfield. He's got to get those hammers in. With no conviction i will favour Tyson by a razor's edge.

Larry Holmes - i always make Holmes a narrow fave here and will again pick him as a decision winner. I won't however even begin to debate those who disagree.

Ali - Ali UD, end of story.

 

And that's a decent assessment. Whilst i pick a few over him i'd be very leery if i was in the opposite camp. He's a live one for anyone, absolutely anyone.

 

That's it in a nutshell except Shavers has far less chin and stamina than Rudduck so won't last. Rudduck is a better fighter.

 

I'll give this a go...A prime Mike Tyson was a formidible force for certain...
Ali- Both of their styles would mesh together...I like Ali's overall boxing IQ and toughness to beat Tyson...Ali would psychologically own Mike Tyson. He would drive Mike wild...IMO
Holmes-Tyson had been trained since he was 14 y/o to slip Holmes' jab and counter with rights...Larry Holmes was the target of Mike Tyson and Cus D'amato practically since Tyson put gloves on...As much as I like Holmes, I think Tyson wins, like he did.
Frazier- This is tough...I'll say this. If Joe lasts past five rounds...That is a HUGE "if"...With his endurance and much better inside fighting skill, he may beat Tyson...Side note, Dundee picked Tyson to KO frazier early in a hypothetical.
Foreman-George survives bombs...discourages Tyson by coming forward and KO's him.
Beats Norton and Shavers easily.
Liston-Very tough. Liston had more of an arsenal than Tyson...I lean toward Liston dictating with the jab...He might KO Tyson in 10...But I'm not comfortable with the pick.
The rest? Tyson wins.

 

I'll concede to Futch on all matters relating to Norton.
He knows what he's talking about, I've demonstrated my ignorance (even though I had read that before, I foolishy forgot it).

Me being wrong about Norton hardly makes me re-think my predicton on Dempsey-Hide though.

I agree with all your above comments. Maybe I was over-zealous in my enthusiasm for Shavers' puncher's chance, and the element of uncertainty in such an explosive pairing of foes.

Upsets generally dont shock me, I mean the bar has been set quite high there, not least by Tyson's losses to Douglas and Holyfield.

I thought Tyson beat the best ever version of Tillis.

I dont know what I would have thought if Tyson had never fought Berbick.

In my opinion Tyson was a great fighter.

 

Are you a Philly Fan or what?? Young UD Tyson :yep


He'd knock Norton out before the judges can fill in anything on the scorecards, though.

 

Yeah, i don't understand how Sonny's Jab somehow got the impression that Tyson could only fight 1 round. Must have missed the Thomas, Ruddock, Botha and Biggs fights. Hell, even against Lewis (who probably punches about as hard as Shavers but with more precision, speed and variety), Tyson was still fighting in the 3rd round (landed a great left hook). And that was a Tyson 14 years older than the one that would fade after one round with Shavers?

If it's huge puncher with a glass chin vs huge puncher with a strong chin, always go with the strong chin. Shavers has a very small chance here. Even if Tyson had Norton's chin, Tyson's defence is much better, he can throw the overhand right, left hook, right hook, left uppercut, right uppercut, or any combination. Shavers has a slow, choping right hand and that's it.

Edit: sorry, i just read Sonny's last post in which he took it back.

 

Jeez ya making me feel bad now lol. Hey, i got a chance to post it again and i think we'll both agree it's a fascinating little read. What an amazing difference genuine power made to Norton, you would not believe it was the same guy who gave Ali and Holmes so much trouble and drama. I like you was totally for the "can't fight backing up" thing with Norton before i read Futch's pearls of wisdom. I'd never blindly follow everything he ever said, but in this case he certainly makes good sense.

Certainly not, i was just making a comparison.

It's all fun and all opinion, but you were a fair bit outside your normally almost flawless summation. Shavers power gets lots in, myself included at times. Duo also has a very soft spot for him. Remember i picked him to KO Dempsey years ago in our tournament thread just to give him a bone? dmt almost had a heart attack

If Earnie had a bit more chin and stamina he'd have been something.

I would still debate endlessly that Tyson around the time he won the title and a bit after was a far better fighter than the one who fought Douglas and a bit better than the one that fought Holyfield. Even judging Tyson as cynically as we can we have to say Holyfield and Douglas put on two shows Norton and Shavers sure ain't. Holyfield took some real hammers yet gave them straight back with interest. Norton and Shavers can't take those shots. Douglas boxed brilliantly the whole night in a style that Norton and Shavers could never replicate. That's worst case scenario for Tyson IMO. Holyfield was a helluva lot better than anyone realised going into the Tyson fight IMO. I believe Holyfield beat a better version of Tyson than Douglas actually did for numerous reasons.

Yes i've always taken note when you've said that. Boxrec and standard thought tells us otherwise, but it's entirely possible Tillis rose to the occasion and put on a career high performance. I'll not doubt your judgement there. It's entirely possible Dokes put on a career high vs Holyfield too, so your point is taken well.

Well he's got an excellent chin, is VERY strong, quite aggressive and doesn't get intimidated. He actually put on a better show than many others around the era.

 

Loses to : Ali,Foreman

Beats all others as stated above