Tyson- What if?

My2Sense, there's enough evidence in the fights themselves to see how far Tyson was slipping. Your gonna tell me Tyson in the Bruno fight looked as good as the one in the Spinks fight, less then year earlier? There was a lot of chatter at the time about Tyson's skills degrading. It's clearly evident by the time the Douglas fight came around. Just watch any version post 88 and compare that to Tyson-Thomas, Holmes, Berbick, etc. It's not even close.

You said that he was "past his peak against Holyfield" , that's a friggin understatement if I've ever heard one. Ya Holy wasn't at his best either, but Tyson was a one-two punch head hunter at that point who had also just spent 3 years in prison. He was made for Holy's style at that point, and that's all there is to it.

 

:deal

 

This. The topic has been done to death and he wouldn't have ever done it hence why he hasn't.

 

No there isn't. He only fought two times between Spinks and Douglas, and in one of the fights he impressively finished the opponent in a round. He was still as highly regarded as he ever was going into the Douglas fight and was a humongous favorite to win.

No, but he looked as good against Williams after Bruno as he had against Spinks. Likewise, he's had performances pre-Spinks that were as much or moreso open to criticism as Bruno.

No, the understatement is you saying "Holy wasn't at his best either." Holy was so faded then that he was actually considered washed up, and there were questions over whether he should be allowed to fight Tyson or even be allowed a license to fight at all. There was nothing like that at all being asked about Tyson.

No, that was never "to it" at all. Tyson was widely favored to win the fight easily against an opponent who looked to be too far gone to do what many people thought he had a good chance of doing 5 years earlier.

 

Exactly.

Even if he somehow managed to get by Douglas, he's still going to hit a wall against Holyfield.

 

I agree...he would have a better chance with the right men in his corner but the flaws in his make up came out

 

who Mitch Green or James Tillis

 

The flaws didnt come out against the other 8 champions he faced when those right men were in his corner.

 

Whats wrong with fighting Tillis and Green? He wasnt even a champion yet?

 

What exactly puts Holyfield so far ahead of Tyson in your opinion? What really separates the two in their respective careers? Riddick Bowe who Evander lost to twice, is really it. All the rest including James Douglas are basically the same. Tyson fought his fair share of seasoned fighters, former champions, and dominated guys like Alex Stewart and Larry Holmes far better than Holyfield did.
Is it because he never got off the floor after being knocked silly to win a fight? That hardly confirms mental fortitude in my opinion, and although Tyson showed lack of heart and commitment in his comeback, he certainly showed plenty of grit to beat any fighter in his first reign.

 

Tyson never looked as good after Spinks as he did that night or prior. Yes he put on a good performance against Williams, but the way he looked against Bruno and Douglas is enough to see that his skills were deteriorating. You also ignored lefthooks post which provides plenty of evidence in the matter.

And which bad performances pre-Spinks are you talking about? Let me guess, Tillis? That was 1986, Tyson was an up and comer at that point. Name me one bad performance in 87/88. And I'm sorry, but I have eyes, I've seen all of Tyson's fights a million times. He never looked as good post-Spinks as he did prior, it's a fact. And there's so much evidence that supports it that it slaps you in face. I'm sorry you're in denial.

Ok, so Holy was washed up. That doesn't disprove how inane your comment was. Tyson was 3 years in prison after already being on the slide. Of course he was expected to beat Holyfield, Don King conjured the Tyson mystique back up and people thought he was invincible. Fact is, he wasn't even close to what he once was.

 

Losing 9 out of 10 rounds suggests there's a much bigger problem than just a bad training camp. That doesn't normally happen unless there's a fundamental stylistic problem/limitation as well.

He's said the total opposite as well, as has Tyson.

There was as much or more media chatter about his behavior going into his fight with Spinks. And in fact, those people in the media who picked Spinks to pull the upset cited that as the primary reason.

Where's the proof that Rooney was such a great trainer? What great stable of fighters did he ever have? In fact, Snowell has probably accomplished more overall in his career than Rooney has.

 

Aside from the fact that Holy proved twice that he was Tyson's master, he also crushed the very fighter that had outclassed Tyson, and had much more success at the top level for a much longer time and to a much more advanced age.

Saying that Tyson beat guys like Holmes and Stewart quicker or easier than Holy did is a rather trivial point, given that Holy beat them both decisively anyway. It certainly wouldn't outweigh blowing out a guy who outright beat Tyson. Besides which you could also point out that Holy beat Tillis much quicker/easier than Tyson did, and was much guttier and more competitive in twice lasting the distance vs. Lewis.

He didn't even beat every fighter he fought in his first reign, and seldom if ever was tested enough to even show the kind of grit you're referring to. The one fighter in that time who did thoroughly test him for more than just a round or so went on to KO him.

 

Yes he did. He shut Williams down and blasted him out in 1 round just like he did to Spinks. There's nothing more you could expect from him than that.

Not if he still shows those skills in between.

Was every so-so performance he had a result of "deteriorating skills"?

And Tucker, Thomas, and Bonecrusher.

No, it's an opinion.

No I'm not. I'm just not interested in going out of my way to revise history and/or make excuses to make a fighter out to be better than there's any evidence to show he was.

No, that's just a fabricated spin. The people actually saw him fight a number of times and saw what he had left.

 

Tucker, Thomas, and Bonecrusher were bad performances? He shut Tucker and Smith out and brutally KO'd Thomas in the 4th round. Wtf are you even talking about?

The Tyson who beat those three fighters would have murdered Bruno and beat Douglas as well.

Williams was a good performance, but that was also Carl Williams. Any version of Tyson at that point would have scorched him.

No, it's a fact. Name me one boxing expert/writer/commentator who agrees with you besides Teddy Atlas.

Show me a reference/quote/footage where Tyson or Snowell says he was in shape and prepared for the Douglas fight. I would also like the year please. Meanwhile, I can you direct you to the recent Tyson documentary where he says he didn't train at all, didn't take it seriously, and had no desire.

There's also plenty of older footage out there of Tyson saying the same thing, as well as Snowell in the HBO doc talking about Tyson being uncooperative, getting knocked down by Greg Page, etc.

I can't recall one 'so-so' performance in 87-88. Your three examples are ridiculous. None of those fights were even close.

No one claims he was a great trainer. He was Cus Dmato's pupil. He understood the peak-a-boo style. And he was Tyson's close friend. Tyson's new trainers didn't know **** about that style.

atsch What he had left was his power and ferocity, that's about it. His skills were very deteroriated. He had no jab, no combination punching, none of the old instincts or counter punching ability. He had devolved into a one-two punch headhunter, who loaded up telegraphed right hand bombs.

No ones making excuses, were just stating it for it is. And there's plenty of evidence, which you ignore. I'll go on record by saying that Tyson's post prison career was mostly a joke. And he should have never ever lost to Douglas. But the facts are what they are. Your the one revising history by making ridiculous claims that Tyson was the same fighter against Douglas or only 'past his peak' against Holyfield.