Tyson- What if?

I'm a dick rider because I'm telling the facts? Your a ****ing delusional Tyson hater. All it takes is two eyes and a brain to see what the situation was at the time. Your going to tell me Tyson post spinks was the same guy as before? If that's the case, your a clear ****ing moron, stupid *******, who doesn't know your ass from your elbow on the subject OR you just have some inner grudge against Tyson so your going to ignore what the facts actually were.

I'm not taking ANY credit away from Douglas. And I'm not making excuses for Tyson. He should have won that fight, and it's his fault for losing. But I'm not gonna sit here and say that Douglas beat the best Tyson, cus its bull**** and you know it. I'm not gonna say Pacquaio beat a prime De la Hoya either, or Frazier beat a prime Ali. Part of analyzing a fight is looking at the CONTEXT of the victory/defeat. You would think a point like that would be at least a little important in analyzing a fight. Not according to PetethePrince and MY2Sense in the case with Tyson though. In their imaginery worlds, Tyson never ever had any problems outside the ring, never was affected by outside forces, and was at his absolute peak condition against Douglas, and only 'a little past' it against Holyfield, even though he spent 3 years in prison and his skills were highly deteriorated already. It was talked about and reported on heavily at the time. Everyone knows what the situation was, its common sense by now. You want to ignore that though , because your Tyson haters plain and simple.

My2Sense your a hard headed ****ing shitface. Even though Aaron Snowell himself and Tyson said that he didn't train and prepare properly, even though everyone at the time knew the situation, even though a 3rd grader just by looking at the fights could see what was happening, you still ignore it. Cus your a ****ing Tyson hater, why don't you just admit it.
And Tyson NEVER said he was prepared for that fight. I would like you to give me a quote or a video where he says that. If you do , I will eat my words, but I know I won't because you can't do it. And it wouldn't matter anyway because he's already said most recently that he wasn't prepared, and that he didn't train. But of course, he's lying right? Aaron Snowell is liar too.

My2Sense hasn't owned anything. All hes done is ignore facts and twist things around, and use strawman/red herring tactics to shift arguments around. We've thrown clear evidence at his face, but he's still in denial. He even used Aaron Snowell as a reference earlier, and lefthook gave him VIDEO EVIDENCE of Snowell saying that Tyson was uncooperative and wasn't training properly, and he's still in denial. I've mentioned 3 times now the Tyson doc where he said that he didn't train or take it seriously, but according to My2Sense... "he's just saying that.." Yet if Tyson said the opposite, My2Sense would be using that to support his argument. He's so full of ****, and an obvious Tyson hater its ridiculous. He won't give Tyson credit for anything. He's always around here on que bashing Tyson whenever a topic springs up.

Lefthook you should just stop trying to reason with these morons because their never going to listen to you. Everything your saying is going right over there heads. They think that being in shape = 100% preparation (and he wasn't in great shape, he gassed out halfway through the fight), and a fighter can't be affected by anything outside of the ring, and trainers have no affect on a fighter either. Training habits also have nothing to do with how a fighter performs, and mentality has nothing to do with it either.

No, as long as your in shape and young, your at your ****ing peak and there's nothing that can change that.


PetethePrince , MY2Sense I would like you guys to watch these two clips and compare Tyson-Thomas and Tyson-Bruno (about a year 1/2 apart) and tell me with a straight face that that's the same Tyson. Tell me with a straight face that that's the same guy, non-deteriorated, in ANY WAY. If your honestly telling me that, then you guys are blinded by stupidity or hatred, OR you HAVE NO sense of boxing whatsoever.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt2waqpyEHw[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPHofYgReog[/ame]

 

peak tyson is king of the hill.

 

Josak your obviously a passionate Tyson fan, but your giving these guys exactly what they want to get out of you. You can see the smoke coming off your keyboard :fire. Rather than going on a rant just challenge them with a critque like you've done.
Interestingly enough I would like to hear M2Sense's take on these two videos and whether or not he sees anything different between these two fights. Both were heavy brawls, but there are distinct differences in Tyson's modus. I'll even given him a hint, listen to the first thing you hear out of Rooney's mouth when the bell rings.

 

Yeah I think there's broken things in Josaks house.

 

Topic has been beaten to death.... My2Sense is delusional, and it would have taken 2 punches to take down Bowe. Bowe now thats a badass.

 

I have challenged them with critiques, as have you, but My2Sense is great at ignoring things and twisting things around. I'm getting tired of his bull**** and ignorance.

btw, here's the legendary nights video where he claims that Tyson said he was prepared for the Douglas fight. Skip ahead to 3:10:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSBqWNjqroQ[/ame]



He says that it was his fault and he takes responsibility for the loss, but he doesn't say anything about being prepared. That's because he's never said that, ever.

 

You know what I wanna apologize to PetethePrince for calling you an ******* and My2Sense a hard headed shitface. Even though Pete you called me dick rider, but suit yourself.

I think the point here is that you guys just won't acknowledge that Tyson was the least bit detoriated for the Douglas fight. Or by saying that Tyson was only a 'little past it' for Holyfield. To me that shows clear ignorance, but feel free to disagree.

It's like saying Ali was only a 'little past it' after prison. Or Lewis was only 'a little past it' against Vitali Klitchsko.

Tyson was still young and in shape at the time he fought Douglas, but being in shape isn't all that it takes to prepare for a fight. There's hard work, dedication, having the right trainer, having the right relationship with the trainer, attitude, focus, etc. There was a clear shift after Kevin Rooney/Spinks in Tyson's character/personality and technical abilities when he hooked up with Don King and Aaron Snowell. It's clearly evident when you watch the Bruno fight. It's not as noticeable in the Williams fight, but I attribute that to a poor quality opponent more then anything. And obviously, it was extremely evident in the Douglas fight.

If you have an eye for boxing, you can notice the differences in Tyson's skills in his 87/88 bouts and his fights afterwards. There's a very discernible difference. Countless boxing writers/commentaors have brought this point up, so it's not just me. And it's come out of the horses mouth himself.

I admit I'm a huge Tyson fan, I've studied his fights intently. I know his style very well. His skills started to erode as soon as 89 hit. You can deny that all you want, but it's a simple fact at this point. If you know boxing, and you understand Tyson's style it's really indisputable.

If you want to talk about Tyson's career, or how great he was, his mental fortitude, etc, that's a completely different debate. I've actually been very critical of Tyson's career. I consider his post prison career mostly a charade, and a joke. I think after Rooney and Spinks, he turned into a pretty generic head-hunter. I don't excuse the Douglas loss, he should have never lost that fight at all, and Douglas fought a perfect fight given the situation-- but I'm not going to ignore the facts at that time.

 

Again, my point about the Tucker/Tubbs fights was not that Tyson was capable of losing rounds, but that if one only watches those rounds, you might think he was just as much "flabby", "unprepared", "not throwing combinations", etc, because when Tucker/Tubbs controlled him momentarily, he couldn't do those things. For a moment, they didn't allow him to, just like Douglas didn't allow him to, for 95% of their fight.




About the Bruno and Thomas videos, what's the point? He gets caught with the perfect punch by Bruno, who is one of the heaviest punchers of all time, and is staggered once, but goes on to win every second of the fight enroute to one of the most brutal on-the-ropes knockouts in his career. He even knocked Frank down within the first 10 seconds of the fight, how the hell is being anything else than sharp and focused??

Then against Thomas, he has a great first round and nearly stops his opponent, however, some of the next rounds he loses (is he past his prime??) until he finds a great left hook and follows up in the 6th, to an even more brutal stoppage.


And the point is? He lost more rounds against Thomas than he did against Bruno, and needed more time to win the fight, too.

Against Tucker, he got hurt early, just like against Bruno, but went on the win the fight in lesser easy fashion than against Big Frank. Does that also mean he was past his past, not using head movenemt, etc, against Tucker?


And did you miss that time when he knocked out the guy who as good as beat Holmes in one minute, with a single, GREAT counter left hook?



If Tyson was fading than he sure hid it well in his previous fights.

 

^ About the Bruno/Thomas fights, your missing the point. It's not about when he won, how early he got the KO or whatever, we're talking about his actual style and the way he went about fighting his opponents. If you watch those two videos and tell me there's no difference, I don't know what to tell you.

Tyson pre-89 was sharper, had a good jab, threw punches in combination, counter punched. He was very scientific in his approach..The post 89 Tyson loaded up big, telegraphed shots (lead lefts hooks and rights), didn't throw combinations, neglected to use the jab, didn't counter punch as well. It's a big difference if you study his fights.

As far as the Tucker fight goes, Tyson didn't get hurt in that fight okay, he got caught with one left uppercut that knocked him back. Tyson in the Bruno fight actually got wobbled.

I believe sincerely the Tyson of 88/87 would have finished Bruno a lot quicker. And he wouldn't have gotten caught with a punch like that either. Tyson was a wild head hunter post 88'. Just watch the Bruno fight, Douglas, Ruddock, Stewart, Tillman, etc.

The difference is that Tyson adjusted. Tyson went on to outbox Tucker, who was the taller, rangier guy (imagine that).
Tyson didn't know how to adjust against Douglas because he had become a strict headhunter at that point. He got away from the things that got him to the top.

 

I have to love Josak's commitment here. Inspiring stuff.

 

That's your opinion, but let's look at the FACTS here. You're talking about studying his fights, so let's do just that. Let's watch the Bruno video that you posted first. I'm skipping randomly through the fight and saying what i see:

3:00: Opening seconds of the bout. He uses constant upper body movement, slips the jab and throws a hard countering left hook. Beautiful stuff. Moments later he knocks Bruno down.

3:30: Uses the jab to set up his right hand (that's right, his jab), then when he misses, slips a Bruno counter left with amazing speed, again, using the upper body movement that he supposedly lost. (as well as his jab)

3:49: Slips Bruno's jab and uses his own jab to set up the right hand (counter punching, jabbing, head movement; all things he supposedly didn't do anymore).

4:00: Throws the jab and uses upper body movement to evade any punches, but gets tied up.

4:50: Tyson slips multiple punches in a row and throws various hard counter shot, but Bruno defends quite well here.

This is just the first half of the first round. Fast forward to the second round:

7:00: Dips low to get in a right hand. At 7:08, he throws a jab and tries to follow up, but Frank ties him up. After that clinch, he perfectly slips Bruno's great jab, using upper body movement.

7:39: Tyson throws a double jab and then very fast, manages to slip Bruno's countering jab, again, using the upper body movement that he supposedly lacked.

I could go on, but you get my point: the popular saying that "Tyson didn't use head/upper body movement, stopped using his jab and just threw bombs" is contradicted completely by the facts. Watch said parts yourself, as well as many others that i didn't bother to look into:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPHofYgReog[/ame]

You can believe whatever you want to, but the facts as i just posted them are undeniably true.

Well, the difference is that against Douglas, Tyson couldn't adjust, whereas against Tucker he could.

 

^ So did you watch the Pinklon Thomas video? So do you think Tyson looked better against Thomas or Bruno? I just want to be clear.

And to answer your other points. First of all I've never said Tyson didn't use head movement post 89, I've never held on to that belief. He certainly did use head movement but not as effectively. He would often rely on simply dipping down and loading up a big shot. Tyson at his peak would slip punches like a ninja, and come back with the quick counter shot.

But lets be honest here, how many jabs in the entire Bruno fight does Tyson actually throw? Not many. It's pretty much non-existant. How many body punches does he throw? How many combinations does he put together?
Likewise, how many times can we count in that fight where Tyson leaps in with a sloppy, loaded up, lunging left or a right hand power shot?

Lets contrast that with the Pinklin Thomas footage, where Tyson primarily works behind a very effective stiff jab, is very sharp, has tight defense, goes to the body. He counter punches very effectively, and he throws 2-3 punches at a time.

I really can't believe that your telling me Tyson looks good in the Bruno fight. He looked good maybe by normal standards, but certainly not compared to himself in the Thomas, Berbick, Spinks, Biggs, or really any 87/88 fight.

He was also hounded in the post-fight press conference by reporters about how sloppy he looked.