Tyson - Your Ranking?

#1 all time heavy vs tomato cans, trial horses, journeyman, and fringe contenders. Tyson could blow them out better than ayone.

#11-13 in terms of legacy and head to head results. On an all time list, there are no cream puffs, and Tyson lost his biggest legacy fights.

 

I judge Tyson mainly on his fights before prison so I have him at a solid #9 all-time. He impressively cleaned out the heavyweight division, unified the belts, and stopped just about all of his opponents in his title defenses (Tucker and Smith went the route). In other words, he got better as he went on. If you're gonna argue that he didn't have the longevity that many ATGs have you must take into consideration the fact that guys with Tyson's dimensions don't last long.

 

I think he's more deserving of a top spot than a lot of people give him credit for. At one point, he was regularly being overrated, but as time goes on, he seems to be sold short. He was the youngest heavyweight champ in history, he unified every title, was unbeaten in his first 37 fights, had 9 title defenses, scored one of the earliest knockouts of another all time great and regained two thirds of the title after spending 4 years in prison. Of course, I think he was strategically steared into those later title fights, but still.

Tyson probably belong around 5-8.

 

TOP 8-10 all time Heavyweight.

 

Sounds about right...I rank him 13

 

I disagree with that bold notion. Spinks was the linear champ and unbeaten. Just because it took him only 91 seconds doesn't mean that that isn't a legacy fight.

Sonny Liston had a legacy fight against a chinny, tiny heavyweight that came right at him. Should we, for that reason discard that as a "legacy" fight? What about Dempsey's win over a rusty, old and unskilled Willard? What about Marciano's win over a 37 year old Walcott? What about Lewis' win over a 36 year old Holyfield?

Bottomline is that not everyone can have a legacy fight a la Frazier vs Ali I.


The Holmes fight was very significant as well. Almost everyone thought Holmes had beaten Spinks in the rematch, which would still make him the linear champion. Tyson blew him away in a fashion that no one did, even when he continued in his 40's.



The Tyson vs Lewis fight is indeed a legacy fight he lost.


What about the Holyfield fight?

I think the only reason everyone sees this as a legacy fight is because he lost it. Had he knocked out Holyfield, then Holyfield would've been a washed up cruiserweight, having lost 2 out of 3 with Bowe and recently looked terrible against Moorer as well as Czyz.

Same with the Douglas fight.

 

Mike Tyson has made some off-the-wall statements in his day and alot of the time I would have no idea what he was getting at. Other times he would say profound things and come across as very introspective. One of the statements that Mike Tyson made that has stuck out for me is something he said after the McBride fight. He said "don't feel bad for me, my career ended in 1990."

Not only was that statement long overdue but it's pretty tough to refute.

 

Tyson beat a lot of solid fighters and his "legacy fights" came well after his prime. Yeah, the heavyweight division was rather barren in the 80's but let's not forget that Tyson dispatched his opponents emphatically whereas alot of ATG's (in any weight class) have fought down to the level of opposition. Tyson never did that. Hell, I love Evander but he was guilty of fighting down to the opposition a few times. Not tyson though. He got u out of there quickly.

 

lower top ten there is no logical argument that you can make for keeping Tyson oujt of the top 10

 

Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson 2x, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams 2x, Johnny Summerlin 2x, Nino Valdez, Mike Dejohn, Wayne Bethea. Thats a great resume.......also take note outside of nino valdez, liston beat all these men at the top of there games.

I rank liston over frazier because head to head, and because liston dominated his era more than frazier did, and liston beat better punchers.

 

You listed the names of 8 men, and counted some of them twice.

Frazier defeated:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Buster Mathis
5. George Chuvalo
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Eddie Machen
8. Doug Jones
9. Joe Bugner
10. Bob Foster

Notice that I didn't even count some of them twice as you did, and nor did I include some of his defenses against guys like Ramos, Stander, or Zyglewicz, only because I didn't think they were very good, but they were contenders nonethless.

Conclusion: Frazier defeated a larger list of ranked fighters in only 32 victories than Liston did in 50. Additionally, his win over Muhammad Ali was by far better than Sonny ever had. Additionally, he has a better record in world title fights, and was a gold medalist in the olympics. he lost to only two men who were both concensus top 10 greats.

Frazier's resume is better.

 

Liston never got the chance. Liston did defeat the olympic champion 6'4 220lb Ed Sanders with far viewer fights under his belt than Frazier. Also take note if not for Buster Mathis injury, frazier doesnt even QUALIFY for the olympics.

No doubt frazier had a great resume, but the machen frazier defeated was nowhere near the machen liston defeated. Also take note about the lack of punchers frazier defeated. The only skilled puncher frazier fought was foreman and he got wrecked. Liston fought Williams twice and Nino Valdez and demolished them both.

Outside of the Muhammad Ali win, if you compare frazier and listons resumes, liston defeats frazier. Its the Ali win that puts it on par.

In fairness, Frazier got to face ali when frazier was at the absolute peak of his powers. When Liston faced Ali, he was considerably on the decline physically and mentally. Also take note that Frazier was blown away from foreman, a fighter who was very similiar to liston in terms of size, power, strength.

Liston already cleaned out his division pre title.






Judgind resumes isnt the only criteria in my book. In terms of resume frazier is on par with liston. Its listons head to head ability, more dominance of his era in his prime, and the fact he defeated skilled punchers that separate him from frazier in my view. Interesting how Fraziers management wouldnt even throw frazier in vs a very old liston.