Tyson - Your Ranking?

I got Tyson at 8 or 9, his talent was good enough to be an easy top 3, but his 3 and half year jail stint, and no Kevin Rooney in his corner, took away so many years of Tyson's prime, which would of probably lasted another 5 years, followed by another good 5 years where he could of gave anyone a tough fight in the ring, if everything went the way it should of, we would now be having discussions on wether Tyson's career was good enough to put him at one, instead of wether or not we should even put him in the top 10.

 

I personally have Tyson in somewhere just outside top 10, say 11-13th, but he sometimes squeaks into my top 10, just not at the moment. I don't think he belongs in the top 8 given his short time at the top, regardless of how impressive it was.

 

Currently ranking him 14th all-time, but I change my mind a great deal. However, I usually place him in the mid-teens.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Marciano
7. Frazier
8. Lewis
9. Holyfield
10. Liston
11. Tunney
12. Dempsey
13. Langford
14. Tyson
15. Jeffries
16. Patterson
17. Charles
18. Walcott
19. Schmeling
20. Wills

 

Agree on all acounts. It should be mentioned mathis gave him a real tough time in the pros.

I could make a strong case Cleveland Williams was on par with Foreman in terms of power, and Williams certainly had faster hands than George.

Machen was a boxer, while Valdez was a puncher.....Machen rely's most on reflexes speed so at his advanced age and ring tear these left him by 1967, Valdez mostly relied on brute strength, power, and jab. These 3 traits are the last thing to leave an aged fighter. I think Valdez was the more live fighter than machen was at these points in there career. Also Valdez was ranked # 2 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine in 1959(the same year he fought liston), and had his wins over contenders wayne bethea, pat mccmurty, comefrom behind knockout of contender harold johnson, johnny summerlin the year before he fought liston proves he was a more dangerous fighter than eddie was in 1967, eddie had not been ranked and had not defeated anyone of note and he was not a puncher. I have a quote on quote from Nino Valdez that claims "I could still hit very hard when I fought Liston". Power is always the last thing to leave a fighter.

Ring Magazine has a very flawed manipulated system for ranking fighters. For example Cleveland Williams was not rated when liston beat him, but you cant honestly look at the TV screen of williams fights and not tell me he wasnt one of the 5 best contenders in the world at the time. There are many other examples like this, especially in the 1940s where top black contenders were avoided. You claimed Valdez was washed up, but technically he was ranked # 2 by Ring Magazine when he fought liston in 1959 despite suffering knockout loss his previous fight to obscure fighter. Do we go by yearly ratings or monthly issues? Exactley how many rated fighters did frazier beat?


You have the right of opinion to believe fraziers opposition was better. I tend to believe Williams,Folley and Machen at there best were better fighters than Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena




I have to go ill finish more later........

 

Bethea was a journeyman for 99% of his career. So was Summerlin.

Just the fact that you need to mention these guys shows how thin Liston's resume really is.


Also, the Summerlin fights were close and perhaps should've gone the other way. Here is a report from Ring Magazine, 1954, Jack Weine:

"Every once in a while you watch a fight that after the official decision is announced you can't help but feel tht perhaps some of the advance publicity had swayed the arbiters. Such was the case when Johnny Summerlin, 193, spotted his highly billed foe, Charles "Sonny" Liston 13 lbs and lost a most puzzling verdict. The bout itself was as torrid as any seen here for several years. But by having scored more often with the cleaner and more effective
punches, veteran observers were 100 % in favor of Summerlin."

The rematch was controversial as well.

His fight with Eddie Machen was also very close.


Williams was good but not THAT good. He flopped often when he stepped up. Should we include Manuel Ramos because he had a high KO percentage before Frazier destroyed him in 2 rounds?

 

Head to Head hes top 3, and may be number 1..

Overall? Id say 8-10

 

Tyson should always rank in the lower end of the top 10. Those that say hes not top 10 are underrating him, those that have him top 5 are overrating him.

 

I didn't know Journeyman were classified as fighters who were in the RING Magazine top 10 heavyweight rankings in 3 different years, and fighters who constantly fought on par with top contenders like Bethea did. Betha was no journeyman, he was no world beater. He was your classic fringe contender. Bethea was 6'0 205lb very strong and one of the most durable fighters of that era, he had a style that was a bit of a spoiler. Take note he took a prime Zora Folley too two split decisions, Folley was a master boxer and had a top Jab, so boxing two close fights on the cards with a man of folleys talent and jab are hard to do. He also took a powerful big heavyweight with a top jab like Nino Valdez too a one point split decision, and gave harold johnson and Machen some trouble. Beat Young Jack Johnson and Ernie Terell He got flattened by an absolute peak liston in 58 seconds, but this points more to Listons greatness than Bethea's lack of ability/durability. I think this win is equivalent to say lennox lewis's win over Zelkjo Mavoric. Both weren't the most talented fighters out there, but both were very strong and , marginally skilled and had a spoiler type style.



6'1 195lb Johnny Summerlin was no journeyman, certainly not talent wise. I had a boxing historian send me mail about johnny Summerlin. The newspaper reports describe Summerlin has having A level talent. He was viewed as one of the better boxers of that era. At one point Summerlin went on a hot streak racking up wins over contenders Young Jack Johnson, Talented Harold Carter, and Young Zora Folley by stoppage. He earned a spot in the Ring Magazine top 10 rankings. He was viewed as a world class fighter. However following the death of his favorite sparring partner and friend in 1956, he was never the same......The floor fell out from under him and he was never the same and his career spinned off into journeyman status. But when Summerlin was fresh and young in the mid 1950s, He had the skills to to threaten Marciano and Floyd. He gave a Green but Still Powerful Liston big problems.
I got the impression from the boxing historian summerlin is an underappreciated fighter of that era. I have a nice picture of john, excellent physique.

I agree, Summerlin was a tremendous fighter, he was 19-1 and within months would emerge into the top 10 rankings. The fact a Liston in his 5th professional fight fought this well against a fighter of this caliber is a testament to listons greatness. What HW champion in there 5th pro fight was taking on a fighter of Johnny Summerlin calbre? certainly not lennox lewis. Fight reports are mixed on the Liston-Summerlin bouts. One report read Listons jab was the difference in the 2nd fight. Either way, coming out with 2 wins over summerlin with less than 10 pro bouts under your belt is highly impressive.

If winning at least 9 out of the 12 rounds vs A master ring technician Like Eddie is what you call close, I am dieing to hear how close you think Lennox decision with 36 year old Ray Mercer was. Your picking at straws here with the machen critisism. Every great fighter has to show the ability to go the distance with a world class fighter in hard paced rounds, This fight to me is a testament to listons legacy because he shows super stamina for a man his size, and the ability to transition and outbox and outjab top contenders rather than just go for the knockout. If Liston knocked everyone out, then you would critisze listons inability to fight 12 hard rounds.

 

What is your defintion of Flopped? I been recently watching some Ernie Terell fights on Film, he is a bit underated. He was 6'6 200lb and had a very crisp long effective Jab, good boxing skills, Solid movement for 6'6, and a very hard style to deal with. He was defintley one of the best contenders of the 1960s.......Williams was the only fighter ever to knockout Terell anywhere near his prime. he proved in the rematch it was no fluke by flooring and nearly finishing off terell in the 2nd round before boxing on even terms with ernie and losing a controversial split decision.

Eddie Machen viewed as one of the more skilled heavyweight contenders of all time, only managed a draw vs Williams. Normanlly when a slugger faces a top boxer Like Lyle did vs Young, They get embarrased.......but not in the case with Cleveland.

Did he flop against sonny? he Battered sonny in the 1st round in both fights breaking his nose......liston then took over and floored cleveland mutiple times cleveland refused to stay down both times. Is this flopping? I think its more of a classic Slugger vs Slugger match where you know the bout will end in the first 5 rounds, Williams more than held his own and certainly earned listons respect, liston spoke very highly of williams. Williams argueably gave liston his toughest fights. He was the only fighter ever to take the fight to liston and have success.


He fought alot of former contenders/ fringe contenders and he did was he was supposed to do with them.......he dominated them. Billy Daniels was a 6'4 ranked contender who williams fought, Daniels looked pretty good with ali he fought in a classic boxerpuncher style with solid funadementals on defense, he lacked handspeed and top power. but he was a decent fighter.


What separetes Cleveland Williams vs other top sluggers like shavers, lyle, is his far superior handspeed and his ability to deal with boxers much better.

 

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Marciano
5. Dempsey
6. Lewis
7. Foreman
8. Tyson (he's interchangable with Holyfield, but he dominated the scene, Evander did not dominate)
9. Holyfield
10. Johnson

 

Also after your adress my points I have a question.........


How do you regard Sonny Listons win over Mike Dejohn?

Dejohn was top 10 ranked contender, 6'3 205lb and had a reputation as hard puncher, specificully his devastating Left Hook. George Chuvalo the king of the iron chin regarded Dejohns left hook as the hardest punch he ever recieved. Dejohn Vs Miteff is out there on film, Supposedly quite the impressive one punch KO over the unbeaten Miteff. Although I highly question Dejohns talent/skill level, There no denying this ranks as a win over a Big Puncher. One fight report once posted here remarked about Liston walking through some of Dejohns biggest punches en route to a dominating knockout win. Rumor on Cyberboxing is this fight is on film.

As far as wins over big punchers, I think listons wins over Big Cat Williams, and Aging nino valdez were better ones.

 

Question about the Dejohn testimony,

Did Chuvalo make his statement about Dejohn hitting him with the hardest shot he ever recieved come at the very end of his career, or BEFORE he faced Foreman and Frazier? Frankly, I have my doubts. Fighters say **** like that all the time. Dejohn certainly wasn't able to pound him to a stoppage, and in fact lost that bout.

 

It was after his career. he said the hardest hitters he ever faced were foreman and dejohn.

 

I concur....but all the Top 10 could beat each other if one fighter's game is down, and the other guy's is up on a particular nite.