Ukranian HW GOAT

It isn't that he is not a good fighter, he is. But in my book, the 17 defenses against untalented big men and talented little fellows isn't worth Usyk unifying against some of the most talented super-heavyweights to do it.

Perhaps you disagree, and I respect that. But that is my story, and I am sticking to it.

 

Heavyweight is unlimited so to me there no concessions unless stated which make sit even more of a guessing game.

If you want to give concessions in a heavyweight thread it's got be be labelled P4P HW IMO.

You somehow have Foreman as your H2H #1 and from memory not far off it in resume. Do you take points off him for usually being the bigger man, sometimes vastly so? Do you take points off him for being so much bigger than Frazier? I don't.

Yeah Vitali just doesn't have much meat. Beating average opposition, even if dominantly, can only take you so far. We've seen myriads of guys killing it for dozens of fights until they meet someone of a higher level. Sometimes they go to pieces let alone lose.

McGrain had Vitali #26 and some would argue even that's too high. His brother is comfortably above that at #16 and no doubt he's moved up.

Provided Usyk doesn't lose the rematch to Fury he's a bit above Vitali you'd think.

 

Totally agree.

Usyk’s lesser size is often called into the equation consciously or unconsciously to magnify his achievements - therefore, they are frequently viewed through a P4P lens.

Calling Uysk a Giant Killer can be seen as viewing him through that same P4P lens.

That’s not to discredit Olek’s achievements at HW as viewed in absolute terms - they have been great but his lesser size has often been cited and also used to argue for the viability of smaller HWs from the past vs the current SHWs.

For one thing, superior skills notwithstanding, Usyk’s lesser size has required him to work harder than his larger sized counterparts at HW - therefore inviting more wear/tear and shortening his potential time at the top.

Still a fine fighter, but there has been physical deteriorations, his battles at HW against the big boys, though not so many, have taken their toll though Olek did come to HW at a late age.

 

On record, Wladimir.

On a P4P scale and flashy skills, Usyk

But the dude I think would beat them both is Vitali. Too big, too tough, too busy. Vitali had an amazing ability to judge the distance of an opponent's punches, and pull back just a fraction to make them miss. Then he'd nail them with his chopping right hand or use that wierd lifting jab of his to control the bout.

 

Kinda like Louis and Ali were bigger than most of the guys they fought too ...

 

Top post.

I'm somewhat undecided on the level how much extra wear and tear go onto smaller guys like Usyk as he has always won. I'll start a thread early next week on just that topic and we can all nut it out and run thru the points and counter points. It has the potential to be a great topic and i'll dress it up as best i can.

 

To be fair Louis also entered the ring with Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera, Max Baer (with his enormous reach) and other decently sized or hard punching competitors. If anything, he fought a myriad of different styles.

 

I'm kind of disappointed Usyk doesn't consider any other fight bar Joshua trilogy, though even in those few fights he faced various styles. Pressure fighter in Chisora, versatile counterpuncher in Joshua, tricky outboxer in Fury, and another big boxer-puncher in Dubois. Both Dubois and Chisora wins aged very well.

 

When I want to view sublime boxing skills I always look at the Baer brothers and Primo Carnera. Class is in session!

 

There is a lot to learn from Carnera.

 

Yeah, but at least Ali had Foreman and Lyle to hang his hat on, and Louis Max Baer as a big, high quality guy. WladKlit's best big man was probably Thompson, and that says everything anyone needs to know.

 

Usyk, in a far shorter amount of time, has beat far greater quality than either of the Klitschkos ever beat.

 

I think it’s kind of an interesting juxtaposition between the two eras personally.

The very top of this era (Usyk, Joshua, Fury) are probably better than any 3 fighters during the Klitschko era (Wlad and Vitali never having a hope of fighting one another makes it weird, feels almost unfair to count them as 2 when talking in this context, lol.)

Wlad and Vitali are at least as good as the best of those three, but realistically probably better than all of them in the case of Wlad, and all but Usyk for Vitali.. But again, with them having no hope of fighting one another, it’s a hard comparison, and I’d say there are more “great” or close to it fighters in this era with at least 3 in Usyk, AJ, and Fury..

But the “everyone else” of the Klitschko era seem to be better than that of the current era.

I dont see prime Povetkin, Ibragimov, Haye, Chagaev, etc. losing to anyone besides the top 3 of the current era.