Let's say we have a time machine and the absolute 16 best prime heavyweights ever enter a single-elimination tournament, where the fighters are matched this way : #1 vs #16, #2 vs #15, #3 vs #14, #4 vs #13, etc. In the subsequent rounds, the highest ranked take on the last ranked, using the same method until one man remains standing ! Here's my initial ranking, followed by the matchups and my conclusions about the outcome of the tournament. All fights are scheduled for 15 rounds with no three knockdown rule. Feel free to comment or do your own tournament 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Larry Holmes 4. George Foreman 5. Lennox Lewis 6. Sonny Liston 7. Jack Dempsey 8. Jack Johnson 9. MIke Tyson 10. Rocky Marciano 11. Joe Frazier 12. James Jeffries 13. Evander Holyfield 14. Riddick Bowe 15. Gene Tunney 16. Ezzard Charles ROUND 1 1. Muhammad Ali 16. Ezzard Charles Ali UD 15 In a rather scientific jabbing and light boxing contest, Ali wins a confortable UD, knocking down Charles with a right cross in the middle rounds. The faster, bigger, rangier and more resistant fighter wins here. Charles exceptionnal boxing IQ isn't enough here, far from his 175 lbs days. 2. Joe Louis 15. Gene Tunney Tunney Dec 15 The upset of the tournament. Tunney moves well and boxes his way to a close verdict, finalizing the Conn exploit to the very end. Louis never really finds his rythm and sometimes appears slow footed against the savvy Fighting Marine. 3. Larry Holmes 14.Riddick Bowe Holmes KO 12 Very interesting matchup in which Bowe size, reach, power and boxing skills (for a big man) represent a threat to Holmes early. Holmes trails in the scorecards before Bowe slows down in the later rounds. Holmes finally boxes on the outside and finds the target almost at will from the 9th round until the end. Speed, heart, toughness and stamina prevails. 4. George Foreman 13. Evander Holyfield Foreman KO 5 Unfortunately for him, Holyfield cannot resist slugging it out with the absolute beast prime\young Foreman was. Too much size and power to handle here. In a memorable war, Foreman prevails not without seeing a lot of leather in his face. 5. Lennox Lewis 12. James Jeffries Lewis Dec 15 In a pretty lopsided boxing lesson, Lewis wins a careful and calculated duel ala David Tua's fight. The jab and the reach are two majors weapons to overcome. Jeffries has difficulty getting inside and is more prudent than expected after having tasted Lewis powerful right hand in the first rounds. 6. Sonny Liston 11. Joe Frazier Liston KO 3 Very bad matchup for Frazier as Liston is big, strong and fights well from the inside and the outside. The reach difference is just insane here. Liston's heavy jab, murderous hooks and uppercuts makes it for a short night. Frazier's chin is solid but not bulletproof against top punchers. I like Frazier's chances if the fight goes beyond the 6th round but I don't expect it. 7. Jack Dempsey 10. Rocky Marciano Dempsey TKO 8 (ref stoppage on cuts) A real tossup.. Logic says Marciano with edge in chin and punching power. However, the sum of Dempsey skills\attributes can beat that. Mobility and natural quickness gives advantage to Dempsey in that classic slugfest. The longer the fight goes, the better are Marciano's chances to catch Dempsey. 8. Jack Johnson 9. Mike Tyson Mike Tyson KO 3 Another headscratcher here and both guys winning by KO is a possible outcome. Let's say that Tyson is very explosive, is a fast starter and that Johnson seems to have enough of the qualities required to beat Tyson.. range, boxing skills, crisp right hand, physical and mental strenght, ability to handle him in-close.. but Johnson may lack the rock solid chin and the natural agressiveness to do the trick. The Galveston Giant may be too passive in the early going and Tyson decks him for the upset. ROUND 2 1. Muhammad Ali 14. Gene Tunney Ali SD 15 In a hotly contested fight, Ali rallies from a deficit on the scorecards to win a narrow decision. Tunney defensive mastery and ability to time Ali's jab make him a threat each and every time. Tunney can't hurt Ali and gets outpunched. 3. Larry Holmes 9. Mike Tyson Holmes KO 11 Holmes legendary heart gives him the nod here, after two trips to the canvas in the first 5 rounds. Tyson can floor him but can he finish a prime Larry Holmes ? Holmes surviving tactics (backpedalling, grabbing, pushing, jabbing) and of course his versatile right hand takes over from the 6th until the stoppage. 4. George Foreman 7. Jack Dempsey Foreman KO 4 As good as Dempsey may be.. speed, agility, chin, power, stamina, ferociousness, I can't see him KO the mighty Foreman. The size difference tells the story here. Dempsey pummels Foreman at moments but end up inconscious in the 4th, running into a formidable uppercut. 5. Lennox Lewis 6. Sonny Liston Liston KO 8 Liston's reach, jab and power spell trouble for the fragile chin of Lennox Lewis. Lewis can't hold Liston off him and cannot avoid the hammer jab. Lewis usually beats punchers, plodders but Sonny is another kind of animal. SEMI FINALS 1. Muhammad Ali 6. Sonny Liston Ali TKO 11 Liston can't change history here. Ali foot speed, strenght, movement will always trouble Sonny. After a few early scares, the logic outcome happens as the great Ali confuses gradually his opponent into submission. 3. Larry Holmes 4. George Foreman Holmes KO 11 The Easton Assassin understands he's gotta run the first 4-5 rounds in order to survive the onslaught. Foreman floors Holmes but Larry shows amazing heart to bring Foreman in deep waters. A prime Foreman is nearly unbeatable but the cagey Holmes can pull it off. Another classic fight. FINALS 1. Muhammad Ali 3. Larry Holmes Holmes SD 15 Ali beat Charles and Tunney early in the tournament but this time, the test is tougher. The fastest HW jab ever (Ali) vs the best HW jab ever (Holmes). In a pretty strategic affair, Ali's speed and footwork advantage are neglected by Holmes capacity to exploit Ali's low hands. Holmes can also trouble Ali with his jab and throw the occasional body punch. A real tossup but I feel Holmes can win 6 out of 10. THE AFTERMATH This kind of tournament is very subjective and many matchups are too close to call. Holmes could've been knocked out by a few opponents and Ali could've won it all. I feel the best head-to-head attributes to win this kind of tournament are: jab, defense, speed, heart, toughness, stamina, chin. All other things being equal, those qualities are hard to beat.
Not bad at all except you lost me in the finals. Ali was a much greater hwt than Holmes. The best Ali had that incredible lateAl movement and a jab opponents could not see coming...it was that quick. Ali would move around Holmes catching him with his quicker jab at angles while Holmes harder jab would more often than not fall short. At the end Ali would be the clear winner on all cards 10-5 in rounds. Ali just too athletic and fast for Holmes to dominate with his jab.
I tend to agree that Ali is the better fighter but I think Holmes has the exact tools to trouble him and make it a close fight. The split decision isn't for nothing..
Tyson could beat Holmes.. but not Bowe, sorry. Holmes would never slug it out like Holyfield did in the 1st fight.
Prime Holmes beats Bowe. Holmes always dropped his jab and it was a right hand over that low left that put Holmes down hard when they did fight. I can see prime Holmes beating Tyson but can also see that same right ending things.
A prime Ali vs prime Holmes would not be a close bout. Yes Larry had a great jab but Alis was quicker and he had that lateral movement that would make Holmes miss again and again. Ali, prime Ali wins a lopsided decision.
Nick, One of the best OPs I've seen here. You made a good, thoughtful analysis and expressed your conclusions elegantly. No one will agree with all of your conclusions- you can't expect that, but it was a great post.
first of all i doubt that holmes could beat the bowe 92 who faced evander, bowe would beat him in worse fashion than spoon did, holmes always did trade blows with puncher slike a ******,. tyson would ko him yes or yes, he had the number of holmes, larry could outpoint foreman but he is not stoping george by ko, and prime vs prime ali was simply better than larry, you are clearly a holmes fan.
He better....because Holmes beat Spoon in real life as well as on most cards mine included...There are a few who cry robbery, but there always are. Holmes won in real life and the majority....Bowe goes down as well. Spoon vs Bowe might be the more interesting match. I am a philly guy and would love to see Spoon w/ the strap...but no it didn't happen! Spoon was not active enough to pull it out.
I would love to see Frazier beat Liston, but I wouldn't pick it...Liston and Foreman are the only 2 HW's I favor over Joe...But I hope you are hypothetically correct. Well Tunney and Charles were HW champs (Charles is in my top 15 ATG HW's/ Tunney my top 35...so Tunney might be a stretch) so I guess they belong.
Fantastic thread - most interesting I've seen for a while. I'm not sure I agree with the Lewis/Liston fight however. I do see Lewis beating Liston by UD more often than not. That's just my opinion of course. I see a Lewis/Ali semi-final in which Ali wins a SD. I agree with the Holmes/Foreman fight, although I feel a Holmes TKO13 is more likely.