Unpopular Opinion: Foreman would have KO'ed Ali if he kept the pace he did in the 1st round

It was a very finely tuned and balanced fight for Ali.

Not long before the moment Ali did see George off, Ali said he was fast tiring himself and knew he had to end it soon.

Ali’s strategy is often underrated and oversimplified. It was significantly anchored in Ali’s ability to take hellacious body shots - but taking them didn’t mean that they didn’t hurt, cause damage or drain Ali’s own stamina.

Ali even used psychology to manipulate Foreman during the fight and cause him to switch his body attacks from Ali’s right flank to his left flank or visa versa in order to allow Ali some breathing space.

Ali picked his moments to go to the ropes and let George wail away but the actual time Ali spent laying on the ropes is often exaggerated.

Finally, the claim that X,Y or Z fighters would’ve beaten that same Foreman totally misses the fact of actions/reactions during the course of a particular fight - actions/reactions and the resulting dynamic that are akin to the unique nature of a fingerprint -

No one gets to fight that exact version of Foreman - during the course of the fight, Ali was the primary reason why George fought the way he did.

 

Hi Pugguy.
Funny you should say " Ali was the... " only I have seen an interview with George many years ago, talking about the fight, and his stance was ,Ali had little option but to take to the ropes, as George said, " what else could he do, stand mid ring and trade with me " so maybe George was the primary reason why Ali fought the way he did ? has Foreman got a point ?
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

Good point Mike. I can’t just say that all the reactions were on Foreman’s part - George forced some choices also.

Foreman was relentless cutting off the ring. Despite Ali’s great start to round 1, George finally cornered Ali in the final stages of that round landing some heavy shots.

The complexion and outcome of the fight certainly wasn’t written in stone at that point.

Perhaps it might be more accurate to say Ali preempted the inevitable?(read: deliberately and tactically retreating to the ropes rather than being forced to the ropes, caught out at sixes and sevens otherwise)?

Ali had already trained for that contingency in general for quite some time and he knew very well how to fight and defend while on the ropes.

That ring in Zaire was tiny and the allegedly soft, slow canvas would’ve made it that much worse for trying to dance around Foreman who, atop all that, knew how to cut off the ring at any rate.

I will say I’ve always wondered how much Ali had planned to dance at any rate. I base that on Ali’s weight of 216 1/2 lbs. Ali went into the preceding Norton and Frazier rematches at 212 for greater mobility - literally calling 212 lbs his “dancing” weight.

While Ali might’ve been looking to some mobility vs Foreman, at 216 1/2, looking that bit bigger in the arms, shoulders and chest, I also think he came in to put on a serious, flat footed power punching display also - which he ultimately did, imo.

Apologies if I wrote too much, happy fingers, mind of their own and difficult to stop.

 

Hi Buddy.
This fight has always ( for me ) been interesting in that did Ali blueprint this tactic prior to the fight itself, because if he did, he most certainly tell Dundee, as witnessed by him pleading for Ali to get of the ropes form the corner, for my part I see it like this, Ali knew his " dancing days " were coming to the end, he alone must have known he could not perform like he did in the early to late 60s, he most certainly wanted George to feel his weight of shot very early in the fight, thus the first round right hand leads, used to good effect I would warrant, he then invited George to tee off on his midsection, if there was one fighter who could withstand body punches it was Ali, knowing that it was unlikely Foreman would finish him with such, from memory the head shots were not so frequent form George, and were blocked or evaded by Ali leaning against and over the ropes, at some stage Ali decided this was working, it was strength sapping for George and strength preserving for Ali, and as the fight progressed rounds 3/4 the force of Foreman's punches diminished, Ali must have, at that stage, realised this was the right strategy, and stuck with it till the outcome, on the fight itself and its importance and bearing on both their careers it was monumental, for Ali ( and me ) it was the fight that cemented his claim to being a truly great and fearless fighter, as I have said before, the younger posters cannot appreciate how the fight was viewed, because Foreman was seen as a living breathing monster, only Liston was comparable in that, but George was bigger, stronger, heavier, plus he had bounced Norton and Frazier around like puppets, also Joe was even then seen as a immortal, an all time great, in fact darn near unbeatable, so what transpired was truly epic, I saw it live in a cinema at 4am, it will live with me forever.
As for you writing too much, write till your heart's content Pugguy , you are a credit to the forum, and to yourself, would there was more like you.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

Top post Mike. You are bang on about Ali wanting George to feel the weight of his shot. Fascinatingly, Ali and D'Amato shared a moment before he fought Foreman and it was certainly a good one. They share the same birthday too, apparently.

It was, famously, Cus that Ali went to seek advice from prior to his massive African assignment with the “unbeatable” George Foreman in October of 1974. And it was Cus who told Ali how he should go straight at Foreman in the opening round and whack the bully with a right hand. “Get his respect,” Cus instructed Ali.

He's an absolute ball tearer of a poster for sure.

 

You’re much too kind Mike but I do appreciate the compliments and genuinely send them right back at you.

I envy you having seen that fight in real time, particularly at the magical hour of 4 am.

Foreman was justifiably viewed as a force of nature.

Ali was one of, if not the most, self autonomous fighters in boxing history.

It’s also ironic that while Ali’s sparring partner Larry Holmes as at the time acknowledged that there were many times that Ali would lay on the ropes and let Holmes wail on him, Larry still didn’t realise that it would be a tactic that Ali would actually be utilising against Foreman.

I think Ali’s deliberate laying on the ropes in training misled people into thinking Larry was getting the better of Muhammad.

There are other, less commonly seen training clips of Ali coming off the ropes and really sticking it to Larry with fast, sharp punching.

Yeah, against Foreman. Ali copped a few bell ringers to the head but his defence kept those to a minimum.

He primarily offered up the body of which Ken Norton, when going to Ali’s body himself, said felt like hitting a concrete slab.

Kenny was one of the few guys that actually doubled Ali up with a beautiful body shot in their rubber match but Ali’s amazing recuperative powers came to the fore yet again.

 

Thanks for your kind words also John - and again, back at you.

But let’s be honest, my record for, shall we call it, energised debate, is heavily padded.

Suffice to say, I’m not about to drastically step up my comp. and butt heads with your good self or Mike any time soon. (Read: never).

 

Thank god

 

Well, I know that’s def. a “Thank God” from where I’m sitting old mate.

 

In his autobiography, Ali said he was schocked at how relatively tired he was after three rounds with Quarry and wondered what would have happened if not for rhe cut, so going by that he wasn't over confident. But it would explain why he was much more flat footed against Bonavena.

 

Guys, the last several posts show what a lovely place this forum can be... Peace and love all, always, Px

 

Nope. It was always destined to be Ali boombayah by KO!

 

Backing up the points made by Pug, Mike, JT and Bokaj, Ali knew himself moreso than he talked about himself.

He was training to fight off the ropes since the first Liston - the Rope a Dope, whilst improvised and used out of necessity given the need to adapt based on what Foreman, the heat and the ring conditions presented that night, I don't think the execution of strategy was novel to Ali.

What I think was a surprise to himself - well, maybe moreso to Dundee and the rest of the world was the continuous use of the strategy and hindsight and folklore has embellished what the fight actually was to a level of dogma that the fight actually isn't.

Ali was teeing off on Foreman all night long. The fight is used as proof of Foreman having low IQ and poor stamina but as has been said, the fight was fought in a way where no other fighter probably gets Foreman fighting in that way. Foreman was charging into right hands trying to land his own destructive combinations, was being beaten to the punch whilst still landing his own devastating body shots. I'm not convinced that many fighters would have survived the onslaught that Foreman brought to the table that night.

The fight is one of those fights where a brilliant fighter virtually destroyed another brilliant fighter in a way that I don't think is that repeatable by other fighters. It's only hindsight and somewhat disingenuous agenda that makes people propose that he could be whooped by Tom, D1ck and Harry.

 

Top post mate, good to see you with some spare time to visit.

 

Back like I never left.