Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

You might want move Billy Daniels up a bit. He defeated Mike Dejohn ( #12 ), and lost to Clay on cuts in 7. While Daniels was down on points, he did hurt Clay with right hands, not one but twice. If not for the cut, who knows!

Anyway Daniels was decent enough from 1960-1962

 

Well, it gets really tough after place 20 or so, as there is a whole bunch of guys who had a win or two over second-tier guys and then lost a whole bunch as opponents,

but here goes--I would rate the same top ten, then

11-----Bob Cleroux
12-----Roy Harris
13-----Willie Pastrano (beat 13 heavyweights rated one time or another by The Ring, and this doesn't include Harold Johnson)
14-----Doug Jones (behind Pastrano as he lost to Johnson)
15-----Alejandro Lavorante (big KO of Folley)
16-----Mike DeJohn
17-----Alex Miteff
18-----Charlie Powell (big KO of Valdes)
19-----Nino Valdes (best wins in previous era)
20-----Harold Carter
21-----Hurricane Jackson (didn't do much outside of narrow wins over Baker during this time period)
22-----Bob Baker (still had enough left to edge Holman & Chuvalo)
23-----Wayne Bethea (close losses to Valdes & Folley keep him from higher position, but beat old Charles & young Terrell, and ruined big prospect Franco De Piccoli)
24-----Alonzo Johnson (big wins over Valdes & Pastrano, then zilch)
25-----Willi Besmanoff (fought almost all the toughies, and so lost a lot, but also beat Baker, McMurtry, DeJohn, Miteff, and gave Moore and Liston tough fights)

Why not?

Chuvalo--lost too often in this period, came on later.
Daniels--had only a few good fights before becoming a low-level loser opponent.
Erskine & London--Other than Pastrano, not much to get excited about in this period, and I think Willie was probably just doing too much partying)
Franco Cavicchi--looks good on film, but didn't beat anybody to prove anything
Joe Bygraves--quickly faded into opponent status, but bounced back here or there to ruin a prospect.
Pat McMurtry--looked okay against Chuvalo, and beat old Charles, but lost badly to Pastrano, Valdes, and Machen.
Howard King--another Besmanoff, but not quite as good.

 

"Valdes went 2-0 vs Mike DeJohn yet you have DeJohn two spots higher?"

I thought a lot about DeJohn and Valdes. Valdes won two split decisions from DeJohn. DeJohn KO'd Miteff and Powell each in one. Miteff and Powell beat Valdes, Powell by a decisive KO. This is the sort of thing which leads to disagreements.

"Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders"

His whole record after 1956 was 15-7,

and you might know more than me about these monthly ratings, but it is hard to believe Ken Hammer, Bob Woodall, Hans Friedrich, Jeff Dyer, or Dan Hodge were ever rated,

or that Richardson and Holman were rated when Valdes fought them,

Summerlin fell out of the ratings with three losses in 1956. Why his four wins over prelim boys in 1958 would have earned him a rating also eludes me.

So it comes down to DeJohn (2), Bethea, Carter, McMurtry, London, and Erskine = at least possibly.

I think Valdes beat 9 who were ever rated between 1956 and his retirement.

"Pastrano hadn't beaten Johnson yet."

True.

Pastrano as far as I can tell beat 10 ever rated heavyweights between 1956 and 1962. I can't tell how many were rated when he fought them. Only Holman I think was ever top five.

On the other hand, how many of Valdes' victims from 1956 on were ever rated top five. Carter had been (not when they fought I think)
and McMurtry.

 

"Willie Pastrano defeated just ONE heavyweight who was rated in the top 10 at the time he fought Pastrano."

???? I know he was sort of a split personality, but being both sides of a boxing match is certainly carrying the Jekyll-Hyde stuff to an extreme.

"So Pastrano beat just one man who was rated top 10 in the heavyweight division at the time of the fight."

I guess you must mean Harris. (stats here from the Boxing Register)

This doesn't really mean as much as you seem to be drawing from it. Johansson had only fought one rated contender, Machen, at the time of earning the #1 rating and fighting for and winning the title. Basilio had beaten only one rated contender (Graham) before fighting Gavilan for the title. Fighting Harada had fought no rated fighters at all when he beat the great Eder Jofre for the bantamweight title. Max Schmeling had only beaten two rated fighters before he won the title. Even Sonny Liston had only beaten two rated fighters according to the Boxing Register when he fought Harris.

Valdes earned a #1 ranking with victories over only two rated heavyweights-Charles and Neuhaus.

Thanks for the newspaper reports. They were interesting reading. They seem to show that prior to the 2nd London fight Pastrano was looking pretty good.

Was Machen rated the first time he fought Valdes? I doubt it. It didn't stop him from beating him. Was Satterfield rated when he beat Valdes? I doubt it. He still won. Was Folley? I doubt it. He still won. Was Powell? I doubt it. He still won. Was Alonzo Johnson? I doubt it. He still won.

First place, for the most part we only have the yearly ratings which are simply the ratings for December of that year. Who was in or out of the ratings each month isn't easy to find out. Also, unless you are talking a guy being rated years earlier or later, I think ever rated is just as good as being rated when you fought them. For example if A is only rated in July, and B fights him in July, is he a better fighter than C who was rated for several months that year but not in the month that B fights him? I think that would be carrying a rating ****ysis over the edge.

These rating stats give a rough view of a guy's career and can be useful if handled with reasonable perspective.

 

these stats are a mile and a half off,

ever rated fighters Valdes ever beat as listed here

Ezzard Charles, Don Co-kell, Heinz Neuhaus, Hurricane Jackson, John Holman, Johnny Summerlin, Harold Carter, Wayne Bethea, Pat McMurtry, Mike DeJohn, Brian London, Joe Erskine, Di-k Richardson

That comes out to 13 fighters and 14 victories

ever rated fighters Pastrano beat during this period

Rex Layne, Charley Norkus, John Holman, Pat McMurtry, Brian London, D'ck Richardson

that comes out to 6 fighters and 6 victories.

But, and it's a big but, Pastrano defeated Joey Maxim in 1955. Maxim was rated at light-heavy, but weighed 183 for Pastrno. I don't find it surprising, which you seem to, that this victory would move Pastrano high into the ratings. Maxim during this period was the only man to hold a win over the incumbent heavyweight champion, Patterson.

And while Valdes jumped to #1 contender status following victories over Charles and Neuhaus in 1953, Pastrano was not jumped that high after victories over Maxim, Layne, McMurtry, and Holman.

Don't see what you are complaining about concerning these ratings.

You have to remember also that Pastrano had lost only to Harris after he was 18 until the London fight in late 1958. When he lost three in a row he dropped out of the ratings.

 

I agree about Pastrano EM,....he did beat London in their first match, but was probably partying and chasing the broads too mush for the rematch. Willie's ideal division was 175, as he proved later...and remember, none of those heavyweights he fought could dent or find his chin....none could deck him.