Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jun 18, 2015.


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  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Which of the heavyweights best punchers did Pastrano actually face to test his chin? 1 John Holman, who is very slow hands and foot.

    Pastrano never fought any other big heavyweight punchers like Patterson, Satterfield, Valdes, Liston, Williams, DeJohn, Folley, A Moore, Lavorante, Johansson, Cooper


    Pastrano's chin was untested at heavyweight
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #16
  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Charles was rated # 1 by Ring Magazine at the time of the Valdes fight, AND a former world heavyweight champion

    Neuhas was rated # 6 by Ring Magazine at the time of the Valdes fight, and European Heavyweight Champion

    Joey Maxim was an NOT rated by Ring Magazine in the heavyweight divison at the time of the Pastrano fight


    Rex Layne was an NOT rated by Ring Magazine in the heavyweight divison at the time of the Pastrano fight

    McMutry was NOT rated by Ring Magazine in the heavyweight divison at the time of the Pastrano fight

    John Holman was rated 8th by Ring Magazine in the heavyweight divison at the time of the Pastrano fight
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #17
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Pastrano was a top 5 rated heavyweight for 4 years in a row without ONE win over a heavyweight rated higher than 8th in the world!!!!

    Valdes earned his high ranking with a win over the number 1 contender, and 2 wins over the # 5 and # 6 rated contender.


    1. Maxim was not rated at heavyweight in 1955
    2. Maxim lost to mediocre former middleweight Bobo Olsen in his previous fight prior to facing Pastrano
    3. Maxim was quite faded at this point

    If Maxim couldn't even beat Bobo Olsen, he wasn't a threat to anyone.

    So you just admited Valdes beat over 2 times the amount of Ring Magazine top 10 contenders that Pastrano beat.


    So clearly Valdes is the more proven heavyweight with a better resume, making him THE BETTER heavyweight.

    Why are you even defending Pastrano here with those statistics?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #18
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    The amount of victims Valdes and Pasteano beat who were Top 10 RING Magazine rated heavyweights at the time of the fights


    Valdes

    Ezzard Charles- Ring Magazine number 1 rated heavyweight contender in the world

    Heinz Neuhas- Ring Magazine numer 5 rated heavyweight contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=qU0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4862,125175&hl=en

    Hurricane Jackson
    Ring Magazine Number 5 rated heavyweight contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=pHQFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6147,2473289&hl=en

    Don ****ell
    Ring Magazine Number 4 rated Heavyweight contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=IesFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2298,3757037&hl=en

    Pat McMurtry
    Ring Magazine Number 10 rated Heavyweight contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=mdkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2771,4525072&hl=en

    Harold Carter
    Ring Magazine Number 9 rated Heavyweight contender in the world. NBA number 5 contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=_n4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3236,867457&hl=en

    Mike DeJohn 2x
    Ring Magazine Number 7 rated Heavyweight Contender in the world
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=_n4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3236,867457&hl=en





    Pastrano


    John Holman - Ring Magazine Number 8 rated Heavyweight Contender in the World
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=H_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4823,5236662&hl=en





    Final Results:


    Valdes: 7 victories over Ring Magazine top 10 heavyweight contenders, 8 victories total.

    Pastrano: 1 victory over a Ring Magazine top 10 heavyweight contender.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #19
  5. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    but Layne was rated by the quarterly NBA ratings at the time of the Pastrano fight

    NBA ratings, October 1955

    Champion--Rocky Marciano

    1------Bob Baker
    2------Nino Valdes
    3------Hurricane Jackson
    4------Ezzard Charles
    5------Don Co'kell
    6------Earl Walls
    7------Jack Gardner
    8------Rex Layne
    9------Franco Cavicchi
    10----John Holman

    The next ratings were in January, 1956

    Champion--Rocky Marciano

    1-----Bob Baker
    2-----Nino Valdes
    3-----Hurricane Jackson
    4-----John Holman
    5-----Bob Satterfield
    6-----Ezzard Charles
    7-----Don Co'kell
    8-----Franco Cavicchi
    9-----Jimmy Slade
    10---Harold Carter
    11---Earl Walls
    12---Jack Gardner
    13---Rex Layne

    *Why were 13 rated in January and only 10 in October? I don't know.

    **Moore was dropped from the heavyweight ratings in October.

    ***notice that the NBA ratings can change things some. Cavicchi would be in their version of The Ring's yearly ratings.

    ****Layne had lost four times that year, but all to men rated in the NBA's top three.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #20
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Ok,

    I will give Pastrano credit for beating Layne in 1955 as being rated by NBA.

    But then you gotta ask

    how much did Layne have left by 1955? In my opinion, he was a finished fighter long before Pastrano got to him

    2ndly,

    How many men did Valdes beat who were rated by NBA, but not Ring Magazine?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #21
  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Layne couldn't beat Baker, but neither could Valdes. Jackson was good enough to beat Baker in 1956.

    Layne was definitely on the way down, but he had beaten Ken Hammer just before fighting Pastrano. Hammer seems to have been a fair fighter, and his brother Mike was tough as nails.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #22
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Valdes also knocked out Jackson in 2. Jackson stopped Layne in 6.

    Valdes also knocked out Neuhas in 4. Neuhas decisioned Layne.



    I think its highly probable Layne was washed up in 1955. I would say he showed significant signs of decline as early as 1953.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #23
  9. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Johnny Summerlin perhaps worth a look h2h?
     
    mattdonnellon, Jun 21, 2015
    mattdonnellon, Jun 21, 2015
    #24
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Yes if the List had been 1955 through 1962 he would probably be well within my top 20..

    Summerlin was a good fighter a dangerous fighter
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #25
  11. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    But what is your point--Valdes was higher rated than Pastrano,

    and probably would have been easily considered better until Pastrano beat Johnson.

    Pastrano was never rated one or two in the fifties.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #26
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    My point is Valdes was the better heavyweight than pastrano. I think he would have been favored to beat Willie any time before 1959
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #27
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Interesting opinion.

    Just not mine.

    This is a toss-up fight. Valdes has size and power. Pastrano has speed and skill.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #28
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Valdes also has a good left jab. 79" reach. When has pastrano faced a jab like that before?

    and skill speed means nothing if you are at a tremendous size disadvantage and don't have the power to keep the bigger men at bay

    How is pastrano going to keep Valdes off of him? He has no power

    Even pastrano himself said he didn't have the power to become a world class contender at heavyweight. I posted the articles for you.

    What makes you think pastrano can handle the Valdes who won a wide decision over Ezzard Charles? What can pastrano do that charles can't?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #29
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #30
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