Usyk says 2-3 more fights before he retires

How not? Douglas was the reigning champ so Holyfield had to fight him. He was out of shape but so was Fury. Douglas also has wins over Berbick, Page, Cobb, McCall etc. by todays standards that would be considered a good resume

Foreman and Holmes were still ranked in the top 10 and Foreman would go on to beat Moorer while Holmes had just beat Mercer

 

Its always fun to read "usyk says" .

Last time "usyk said" was that he needs an extension due to "invisible to the outside world" back injuries and that he will fight the winner of parker vs wardley for wbo title .

Usyk said and now usyk says . Words well spoken

 

The dynamics of the sport have significantly shifted since the 90's, though. Back then, America was the home for major title fights, almost exclusively. Even then, Lennox Lewis, who was a Canadian-Brit, was obliterating American fighters in the US. He beat Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson, Rahman, Michael Grant, and Shannon Briggs, all in their backyard, technically. He was robbed in the first Holyfield fight, too.

The backyard argument is commendable for Usyk, but this is only really a new phenomenon. For the last 80 years, until the early 2010s, it has basically been America as the epicentre of megafights, with the odd novelty venue sprinkled in, like Zaire, Jamaica, or Manila. So it's unfair to use it as a positive for Usyk and as a stellar achievement when other ATGs of other eras did not have to deal with the same dynamics or politics.

Usyk's cruiserweight run alone puts him alongside some of the greatest of all time. Absolutely nobody could convince me he isn't in the top 3 cruiserweights of all time, but his heavyweight resume doesn't have the longevity or depth that Lennox's does. I think once he retires, people will calm down. He's a legend and a shoo-in for the HOF, but he's nowhere near the top 5 HW of all time like some people make out. I don't think he cracks the top 10 personally.

 

If he retires undefeated, he will be a top five, regardless. His heavyweight resume may be limited, but he has run the gauntlet against better than Max Schmeling, Marty Marshall, Leotis Martin, Jimmy Young, Buster Douglas, Michael Spinks (as a heavy), Haseem Rahmen, Oliver MCcall, Chris Byrd, Corrie Sanders, Ross Purity, Lamon Brewster, and arguably, Ken Norton and Riddick Bowe. I think you know what all these men had in common.

 

He would, if he hadn't come in looking an elephant.
And Fury was in shape for both his fights with Usyk.

They were both ancient, when they fault Holy who had a 13 year advantage on both of them.

 

Fury coming off the Ngannou fight is actually being regarded as better than Douglas coming off the Tyson fight??
The bias is hilarious.

The commentators blasted Douglas back in 1990 for coming in a bit heavy, because they had STANDARDS back then, maybe they were too negative sometimes. But better than today's pundits hyping every average heavyweight champion up as an "ALL TIME GREAT", ****ing joke, hyping up everything to sell ordinary championship fights as super-PPVs.

 

Fury had much lower body fat circa 2012 at 245 lb than he did vs Usyk. He certainly wasn't in shape by his earlier standards.

People get credit for beating top contenders regardless of age. Wlad was ancient when Fury fought him but Fury gets credit for the win.

 

Na, I think top 5 is far too high for Usyk. I think people will calm down a bit once he retires. Beating the same overrated Brits over and over again doesn't do it for me. I think Dubois especially is an unbelievably lucky fighter, who would've got nowhere near the title in the 90s or early 2000s, right place, right time, right promoter, and right ref, in the case of the Hrgovic fight, which thrust him into the mandatory position undeservingly to begin with. P4P I would have Usyk above Bowe and Norton, but I wouldn't at HW.

 

Usyk certainly isn't the goat but he would have to be above Bowe and Norton, Norton isn't much bigger than Usyks cruiserweight opponents and Gassiev is bigger than Norton, so he should get partial heavyweight credit for those wins. Bowes resume is too thin.

 

AndI think you will be quite wrong. He may remain controversial in the vein of Marciano, but he will always have his supporters.

 

Yeah, that's fair. I think Usyk is an undeniable ATG of the sport. I just think his HW resume gets overrated. If anyone with a casual interest, like my friends and family ask about Usyk, I always tell them that he's one of the best I've ever seen. I'll hate to see him retire, and he would not look out of his depth against anyone at HW, I just think the depth and quality isn't there on his HW resume.

 

That's fair too.

Representing the other side, I've already given my counter-argument and don't want to beat a dead horse, but regardless of how thin Usyk's resume is, he's beaten better guys than a lot of guys who have beaten "great" heavyweights. The 0 carries cache.

But I get it. It's just going to be one of those things that is argued ad naseum. Basically, after Ali and Louis, the metrics fray quite a bit and 3-5 varies with who you ask.

 

Norton's HW performances are better than Usyk's, I think anyway. He had his decision against Ali and his incredibly close fight with Holmes (which I believe he won) - for me, that's enough to elevate him above Usyk as an HW. That's 2 GOAT-tier fighters he arguably got the W over. Nobody on Usyk's heavyweight resume will make that grade, especially once their resumes age and the dust settles after a few years of retirement.

I could be wrong on this, but I think Fury's resume will age like milk. Dubois was always limited, hence his performances against Joyce and Lerena, and even the first Usyk fight showed he had no business at the elite level; his best win was a completely finished Joshua, who many believe is completely overrated anyway.

Norton didn't have a great chin, and H2H, Usyk probably beats him at HW, but in terms of pure resume, Norton ranks higher for me. Bowe is a better argument, you're right, his resume is quite thin, but I think H2H Bowe has a better chance to beat Usyk, he has the size, power, speed, and has a GOAT-tier win over Holyfield and underrated wins against Dokes, Hide, and Larry Donald.

When we boil it down, Usyk has fought a grand total of 5 heavyweights. I don't think any fighter with a handful of wins at any weight really deserves to be considered a GOAT at the weight class, unless Dubois goes on to dominate HW for the next decade, which is incredibly unlikely. Usyk's HW doesn't cut it for me in the top 5 GOAT HW argument.

 

He didn't get the W over Holmes. He also got knocked out by Shavers and Garcia. Losses do matter a lot if they are unavenged. Usyk beat the top heavyweights in the current division, unified the strongest cruiserweight divison ever and is still unbeaten at 39. Ali might be greater than Usyk but Usyk is greater than Norton straight up.

Furys resume will age like crap, it kind of already has, but at the very least he still dethroned Klitschko and that was close to being "goat tier" win like Bowe beating Holyfield.

However, if the next generation of heavyweights has another tempest (David Surov, Moses Itauma or Joshua Edwards) who happens to beat more top heavyweights than Usyk then I will reevaluate

 

I'm a bit confused by this.
Putting aside that we don't know how tall (or even big) a Norton born 45~50 years later, fighting in 2020s would be,
Norton was both taller and had a longer reach than Gassiev.
(Though I would place Usyk above Bowe and Norton)