Usyk vs Andre Ward @ Cruiserweight

The man who ducked Beterbiev vs the man who beat him multiple times in the amateurs (yes he lost to him too, don't **** with Better Beef).... I don't need to think on that one.

 

Usyk impregnates Ward. Their child looks like Floyd, but with a lazy eye.

 

Ward by testicle KO.

 

Not saying I think he would win, because I dont, but I think Ward gives Usyk a lot more trouble than many think.

 

Ward likes to get inside and rough house. That won't work against a far physically stronger man.

 

True but he always found a way to win or ve effective, even if it's ugly as sin.

 

Would be a fun one to watch. The guy who fought most of his fights in his backyard of Oakland, versus the road warrior who took straps from champs around the world, and never needed a hometown decision.

It’s not a fair fight because Usyk is much bigger but I’d still pick Usyk if they were the same size/weight. Usyk is better in every area and is a much smarter fighter. Ward has the edge in dirty fighting (head butts, low blows, lots of grabbing, etc. ). Usyk is able to win without having to use those tactics or have to rely on hometown judges. No version of Ward gives Usyk any trouble, aside from possible sore balls from low blows.

 

Usyk would have been too big and too good for Ward at CW. He's a better boxer.

 

Usyk's a stand-up kind of a guy, a kind of maverick fighter/philosopher, entertaining personality and admirable champion. But his fans can do him a real disservice at times.

If Ward is such low-hanging fruit, I have to wonder why Usyk expressed any enthusiasm at the suggestion of fighting the guy, especially with the challenge of heavyweight beckoning him. Do quality cruiserweight champions with track records of facing the best guys around usually seek to lower themselves to gimme fights with blown-up 168lbers who've been retired for 18 months? Hey, must be the money.

Friend, you should know that diversity of thought is frowned upon here when it comes to Andre Ward.

If you comment in a thread such as this without dropping your jocks and taking a big squat on him, you stand a good chance of being surrounded by these guys;

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Ward is reviled at BF24. Fair, unvarnished assessment will never be the defining feature of a majority of posts concerning him on these pages. Any post even slightly recommending him stands a very good chance of being used as a springboard to denigrate him. For a case in point, refer to post #22, a scornful, unashamedly jaundiced rubbishing of Ward elicited by your one-liner suggestion that this matchup might have produced something other than a totally one-sided drubbing in which Ward's droopy-eyed face is used as a speedbag while he plods around cluelessly like, well, Marco Huck.

You are typically an articulate, insightful fellow who uses his experience and practical knowledge of the game to expound upon his sentiment. This is why I generally keep an eye out for your posts on boxing. I know you were holding back in this thread. You wanted to elaborate, but you thought better of it and settled for a reductive version. The sense of caution in your contribution is palpable to the discerning reader. You probably hesitated before you opened the thread, knowing full well that you were about to risk invoking the rancor of the locals with your humble, restrained missive. That is the point of the wall of unequivocal posts along the lines of ([url]insert Paul Joseph Watson comedy voice[/url]), 'There's nothing Ward can do at all in this fight, he is completely incapable in a ring with Usyk, he gets destroyed and then Usyk has him cremated and delivers the urn to Sergey Kovalev to take a leak in.' The monolithic thought is supposed to inhibit anybody who might otherwise have piped up with a considered reply that didn't conform to rightspeak.


Take this 'ducked Beterbiev' stuff, for example. Ward was contemplating retirement even after the first Kovalev bout, that much was contemporaneously documented. He fulfilled the rematch in order to address the controversy of the first bout (which only led to a whole new controversy, despite the tenacity and versatility he exhibited, questa è la vita). He was in discussions to box on, but, after consulting with those close to him and giving consideration to the factors of motivation and athletic fettle, he decided to retire in order to enjoy his family and explore different avenues of professional fulfilment.
It's easy to scoff at Sergey now, after one of the steepest declines we've witnessed in a top fighter for some time, while touting Beterbiev as the real crusher, fresh off bulldozing a Gvozdyk who had limited championship credentials as a pro. But 2017 Beterbiev brought nothing like the creditability and the name value Kovalev had brought to the table. Retirement with a mandatory waiting, after a career beset with injury woes, is not tantamount to a duck. There's always another guy waiting. It's akin to saying that Calzaghe ducked Froch. Even less valid, actually, given that Calzaghe-Froch was a highly marketable bout, with Froch in a much better position than a mandatory with no particular fanbase, having emerged as a champion with a couple of very good, world class wins around the time Joe retired.
Had Ward continued to box, I imagine that it would've been with a view to moving to heavyweight (perhaps with a stepping stone bout at cruiser) and trying to emulate his hero, not for a mandatory date with Beterbiev. Beterbiev would have been a tough fight, sure, but not an especially rewarding one in any sense. A guy like Gvozdyk needed to fight a contemporary like Beterbiev, because he has the need to build what Ward already had, a body of creditable work, and Beterbiev was to be one of his building blocks to that end (just as Ward fought his contemporaries at 168, defeated his chief SMW rival, earned his stripes).
LHW Ward would never have been able to do enough to satisfy those who denigrate him. Whomever he navigated a route through, another guy would be bussed in and used as a stick to beat him with.
Bear in mind that many of those who denigrate him swore that he would never have the stones to face Kovalev in the first place. Those pundits were, of course, dead wrong. But they will rationalize to mitigate it, in the fashion of ladies whom lose all sense of reason when it comes to a particular fellow who has gotten under their skin.


Re. Ward's chances with the 2018 cruiserweight king, Usyk quite likely outworks him, but categorical statements about Ward being T/KO'd or stopped have a tang of bitterness about them. I realise that I'm relieving myself in the wind by pointing this out, but very little consideration is being given to Ward's skillset or intangible strengths in regard to his chances of going the distance in the matchup. I saw Tony Bellew (who possesses much less overall savvy than Ward) outmaneuver Usyk in a number of rounds, and I saw him return to his corner 6 times. If Bellew can last 6 rounds, Ward can last 12. He takes a shot better than Bellew, has far greater endurance than Bellew, is defensively responsible/adroit and knows how to limit attrition and survive if he has to. He also has infinitely more tenacity in him (frequently demonstrated) than he has quit (never demonstrated). And he can certainly give Usyk things to think about. Do we suppose that Andre Ward wouldn't have taken Tony Bellew to school? How many rounds do we suppose Tony would've lasted with Kovalev? Putting aside the "styles make fights" cliché and focusing more on stylists making fights, bearing in mind that Ward can do pretty much anything the Liverpudlian can do (and better, and more besides) – if Bellew can win some rounds from Usyk, Andre Ward certainly can, while doing the distance.

And that's not to say that I entirely discount Ward in the matchup, because he's very good at spoiling a man's boxing and methodically turning the tables on him. But Usyk would have to be favored, of course. That's realistic.



Fellas, Andre Ward is a pure SMW who moved up at the back end of his career after a long hiatus (and could still have made 168 for Golovkin in late 2015/early 2016, had the Kazakh been so inclined). We can invoke the hypothetical likelihood that he loses to men who are naturally quite a ways bigger and fresher – which latter factor isn't determined by Gregory XIII, but rather by the rigors of a testing professional career and assorted variables – but it isn't going to exorcise our collective angst, no matter how much teeth-gnashing emphasis one applies to the fan fiction. We will remain embittered and unfulfilled if we don't find a rational, fair, truthful way to assess this person who has, in fact, inflicted no harm upon us or our loved ones. Fun and games are all good, but many on BF24 have taken it past jovial banter and into the realms of abject rancour. If news were to break that Andre Ward had been wiped out by a Mack truck tomorrow morning, it wouldn't surprise me to find you all congregating in a "Mack Trucks Appreciation Thread" in the Lounge by nightfall.

 

He's more prodigously athletic. Ward was a very good athlete, but Usyk has a certain dynamic edge in that category.

As I said to @pistal47, I'd favor Usyk in a Ward matchup. That's a realistic point of view, all things considered – Ward being way past his optimum weight, his history of injuries and Usyk's overall caliber is a tough compound of factors to surmount.

To say Ward would give him nothing at all to think about is ignorant, though. Ward would, in fact, be the best fighter Usyk has ever faced. Certainly a lot better than Mairis Briedis and Murat Gassiev (whom I enjoy), even if he does lack their natural cruiserweight dimensions and strength.

Ward is an exceptionally smart fighter, he can match wits with anyone in there. I've yet to see a fighter in the 21st century who is "much smarter" than him. Usyk's conspicuous edge on Ward when the bout was mooted (2018/'19) would've been constituted by his engine, powerhouse athleticism and size, not his ring IQ. And Ward's 1.5 years of inactivity wouldn't have helped.

You can't really have a "prime" Ward at 176-200lb. So let's just say they fought in Fall of 2017.

Usyk can be thrown off his feint game and has shown that he can be maneuvered with exactly the kind of level change jabs that Ward loves to utilize and hit with a follow-up right hand to the body (another punch Ward loves and practices religiously).

I've seen him maneuvered into overreaching with his cross by a quick, agile step back (like the kind Ward can make) and countered up top with a sharp right hand (like the kind Ward can throw) while off-balance with his feet crossed and in no position to punch.

I've seen him cover up and go back in a straight line, maneuvered by throwaway punches with crafty follow-up shots behind them. Ward, being a guy who can double up the left hand with considerable facility, can quite conceivably put Usyk in reverse with a throwaway lead hook and pop him through the middle of his guard with a snapping, whip-like up jab that comes back on guard like a rubber band.

It would be ignorant to pay no mind at all to Ward's skill at manipulating range and his clever punch selection. He also has the valuable insight on southpaws which is intuitive to converts of a discerning, methodical nature (born orthodox fighters have more work to do sussing them out). That he was troubled by Kovalev's excellent skills at long range is no great discredit, nor does it automatically mean that Usyk can replicate Sergey's success. Usyk does not have a Kovalev-like jab. He has a useful jab (tends to look its best against the more plodding fighters or when guys have started to sag from the pace), but it's not a razor sharp, jolting, pinpoint weapon like Kovalev's stick, it paws a lot and can be negated with orthodox lead hand parries and good lateral movement. I've seen a guy slip inside it and bang him with the kind of right to the solar plexus Ward loves to throw, too.

Speaking of lateral movement, Ward is more economical and thoughtful (less pattern-like) with his movement than Usyk. But Usyk has the engine to use his legs the way he likes to and still be fresh and buzzing around like a bluebottle going into the championship rounds. That's a fascinating part of the battle. Ward would have to call on all of his considerable endurance for a fight like this.

One can attempt to denigrate all the wrinkles of Ward's infighting skill by dismissing it altogether as "dirty fighting", but it's still infighting, and it's an area Usyk isn't better in. Granted, whether Ward can make that count is questionable. I'm not going to wholly rule out the possibility of a 176-200+ lb, strategically conditioned SOG (here come those PED innuendos) being able to muscle up with Usyk and put some of that close-quarter craft to use.

It's forgotten now, but many assumed that Krusher would be too physically strong for Andre to apply himself on the inside as he'd done at SMW. Here's one small example of that pre-fight wisdom;

"I don't see Ward successfully mauling Kovalev at all, at least not enough to upset his rhythm. Whatever advantages Ward has over Kovalev are rendered ineffective by the fact that Kovalev WILL land his punches, and when he does it'll be the end for Ward. Ward's billygoat show wouldn't bother Kovalev, nor will he be able to employ his holding, pinning and plowing technique."

We saw that it wasn't the case.

With that said, Usyk is a very big unit, and the physical demands on Ward would be considerable. If Ward wants to test Usyk (and the limits of his own musculature) at close quarters, he'll look to time the in-and-out darts of Usyk and slip to the inside, at which point we could get a good look at the extent of any strength deficit he'd be facing. If Usyk were more Ward's size, Ward could certainly make him feel very uncomfortable in that range, but my aunt doesn't have balls and she's not my uncle. So, if Ward is hurting for favorable results with that strategy, he'll stick to long-to-medium range and even prioritize survival if needs must.

You're free to make flat statements like "better in every area" and "much smarter", but, when we're talking about two high level fighters, those words are just flatus if you aren't qualifying them with some substance. Usyk hasn't shown me that he's a league above Ward in terms of ring IQ nor overall skillset. Nor has he yet had to show the heart, composure and determination under considerable duress that Ward demonstrated against Kovalev (which certainly counts as an "area").

On that latter note, I've seen Usyk look annoyed when he wasn't getting his way with a guy for a spell. I've seen him look reproachful, as if he'd somehow been gravely wronged, in response to being hit first in the beltline and then again in the head with a perfectly legal left hook (not on the break) after naively allowing himself to be muscled back with his right hand at his belt. That's another move that smacks of Wardology. And it seems Usyk might have a streak of that Kovalev greenhorn in him, the imp who appeals for clean fisticuffs when being roughed up, rather than sucking it up and giving it back. Maybe what I saw three years ago could be attributed to being still relatively green as a pro, maybe not.

Further to that, how's Usyk going to cope if [url]The Lineal Heavyweight King[/url] puts some of that gypsy dirt on him? I'm genuinely interested to see how he'd respond to a situation of real, sustained discomfort and duress. Fascinating scenario.

If Fury ends up bullying him, will his fans be upset and denigrate Fury, as if they've never cheered a spoiler/mauler, while the rest of us get that déjà vu feeling?

The litany of observations I make above re. Usyk remind me of what I said in the "What are Tyson Fury's weaknesses?" thread – they all have weaknesses, the issue is whether anyone can make them matter enough.

But when it comes to men who live vicariously through prizefighters, you will only prise the flawless image of their idol from their cold, dead hands. I sometimes wonder if these fellows watch boxing, or just gaze in awe with loveheart eyes. I get it, I love my favorite fighters. But I can watch them critically, because I love the sport. And the sport will carry on after they've hung up the gloves.



Before it rears its Michael Berryman-like head, yes, I've heard the argument that Usyk was just horsing around waiting for Bellew to gas for the fun of it.

I'm sure that Usyk did have full confidence in his engine and the gears he'd be able to go through when Bellew started to lose sap, but he wasn't losing any rounds deliberately. It's just not what top professional fighters with insane competitive drive do, least of all when visiting enemy turf.

Tony Bellew had some degree of authentic success against Usyk. He's not the only fighter to have some authentic success against Usyk before the vrooom vrooom took over.

Don't misapprehend me, I'm not saying Usyk is nothing outside of a great engine. I'm saying that his athletic dynamism married to a great engine and a healthy complement of long-to-mid range skill makes him the force he is.



But forget fantasy fights with blown-up 168lbers. He's a heavyweight now. That's what he's got to deal with, and he's bitten off plenty.

 

Thanks for the response. Ward was at his best at 168. We aren’t talking about PFP but head to head. If Ward was bigger, it would definitely be more interesting but Usyk is so much bigger and stronger and I think he’s a better boxer overall. Neither is a big puncher but Ward wasn’t a huge puncher at 168 so I expect his power to be non existent at cruiser. He would fight a typical Ward fight, holding, hitting low, lots of elbows and dirty tactics but Usyk is smart enough to keep Ward at a safe distance and I can’t see any path to victory for Ward in this theoretical matchup.

Also, I don’t think Ward at his prime weight of 168 or the LH version of Ward. No version of Ward gives Usyk trouble, even in Oakland, and Ward would not be Usyk’s best win. He’s the biggest name but at the weight they would fight, it’s easy money for Usyk and probably a highlight reel KO for Usyk.

 

Very very good big guy beats very very good little guy. Ward could possibly go up and beat a less crafted CW, Usyk gives him no weaknesses to exploit. It would be a rout.

 

Ward was an elite fighter, no doubt. But my eyes saw him getting outboxed by Kovalev. Going up another weight against someone who is a better technical boxer than Kovalev doesn't tell me anything outside of 10-2 Usyk

 

Great post. It's been nice seeing you back here, not just in the music thread.