Usyk vs Frazier

I like how people are denigrating Frazier to justify picking Usyk.

I won’t denigrate Usyk as I think he has been a great Crusier (comparable weight to Frazier himself and his opponents). I am expecting and hoping for him to shake up the HW division. But time will tell.

I just don’t get the need to diminish one guy to justify picking the other. I pick Frazier because I think he is better and stylistically I think he presents a bad style for Usyk.

Personally I like both and think this would be a fun fight but Frazier’s hand gets held up at the end,

 

I think it's too soon to really try and judge Usyk.

He'd have to do a lot more for me to pick him against Frazier though

 

I'm not making a pick.

 

Is there anything that is untrue/innacurate in my posts?

 

Probably the right call with a fighter with so much of their career left.

 

…...batters him to death

 

I can see the argument for Usyk. It is an open question whether modern training would make it likely that a highly skilled CW (who is ssomewhat bigger than Frazier, except in the lower body) could beat Frazier.

However, the stylistic question has me picking Joe.
Without being a great HW banger/slugger, I do not think excellent boxing would overcome the pressure.

And it is onlr fair to also cite the amateur career on both sides.
Usually listed as 38-2 with 37 KOs for Frazier.
Wikipedia says:
During Frazier's amateur career, he won Golden Gloves [url]Heavyweight[/url] Championships in 1962, 1963 and 1964. His only loss in three years as an amateur was to [url]Buster Mathis[/url].[url][14][/url]

That does not include his Olympic Gold Medal at HW.

 

There’s nothing untrue or inaccurate in what you’ve posted though a bit of context is needed.

You stated that Mathis took Frazier 11 rounds to stop. That’s true but Mathis was also undefeated and 40 pounds heavier than Joe (which Usyk wouldn’t be) and still was ground down and beaten.

You stated that Bonavena took Joe the distance twice. That’s true but Bonavena took everyone he fought the distance bar a last round fluke stoppage against Ali. He was an extremely tough and durable guy. Plus Frazier first met him in his 11th fight which is pretty brave matchmaking on his backers behalf in my view.

You stated that it took Frazier until the last round to stop Machen. That’s true but it was also Frazier’s 12th pro fight against another guy with a reputation for durability (Johannssen shocker granted) who was far more experienced than Joe. Frazier also dominated this fight and again it was an impressive display by a then green fighter coming off a scare and tough fight with Bonavena.

So while it’s true Joe didn’t walk through everyone, it’s also true that he improved a great deal as a fighter after the first Bonavena and Machen fights and bringing those performances up isn’t necessarily indicative to how he’d perform against Usyk.

You could just as easily mention the Ellis, Quarry, Foster, FOTC fights where Joe looked almost as good as anyone has at heavyweight as they have exactly as much relevance as the lesser/poorer performances too.

 

This is a great post!

I would add that someone said that Frazier had a very short prime. I disagree.
He did not stay at the same level as long as many others, though for an undersized swarmer it was not very unusual, complacency (& likely alcohol) took there toll.
But was he not prime from '67-'71? You can argue what were his very best couple of years, but the length of him having all the physical & skill tools at right near his peak does not seem less than average.

You would be hard pressed to find many fighters who had a longer period at right around there best.
And some were at that level more briefly.

Oh, & about the post about the only top drawer banger had him toasted twice...

He was past his prime & Foreman got away with cheating re: shoving continually...
But even granting that Foreman likely beats him anyway, there is no indication that Usyk hits anything like Foreman.
Or that he hits harder than others Frazier fought, like Bonavena or Chuvalo or Quarry...

Frazier has a style advantage over him, & another advantage George had was style over Frazier.

 

Mathis was also untested , unranked and carrying 30lbs of blubber.Bonavena was knocked down by Folley and Ellis something Joe couldn't do. Frazier was having his 12 th fight against Oscar and his 22 nd in their return bout, on neither occasion could he drop the Argentinian.34 years old Machen would have two further fights ,lose them both and retire.I'm not picking Usyk ,I'm not making a pick, just presenting the other side of the argument.
Usyk would not be there for Frazier's shots ,he is a mover.Foster was a light heavy who never beat a heavyweight of any class, Quarry was a small cruiser who finished on his feet in both fights, Ellis a beefed up middleweight.

 

I'm not implying Usyk could do anything with Foreman,I'm just countering the argument that Usyk hasn't fought big heavys who could really punch,by saying Frazier met one ,who nearly decapitated him.Frazier was 29 when he met Foreman and Joe looked about as good as he ever did by beating Quarry again a year later.I think his decline is both exaggerated and accelerated.Foreman just had his number stylistically.George beats him up at any stage of Joe's career imo.

 

Sure sounds like you are picking Usyk though lol.

If you’ve got faith he could move away from Frazier for an entire 12 or 15 rounds without getting trapped or that Frazier couldn’t hurt him if he did, then clearly you think Usyk wins because Joe isn’t outboxing him, everyone knows that.

I don’t think Usyk could avoid Joe all night seeing as Ali couldn’t. Yeah Ali’s legs might not have been what they were but he was still pretty damn mobile early until Joes pressure began to tell. And Ali was hurt more badly by Frazier in the 11th than at any point in his career (aside from the Cooper fight). We don’t yet know if Usyk can endure the punishment of an Ali though the safe bet is he couldn’t because there’s been precious few who could.

I agree that Joe is an attrition puncher but really Foremam aside (yes a stylistic nightmare that Joe could never have overcome) Joe was a arduous night for everyone he fought. I’d back his forward movement to trump Oleksanders lateral and backwards movements over the long haul.

But in saying that Usyk’s career still has a lot to play out, and I’m as high on him as you are. I think he’s brilliant.

 

If boxing was the decathlon your point would be great. But walking a basketball ball court on your hands and doing 20 pull ups (hell I'm over 50 yrs old and 230lbs and can do 12. ) has absolutely nothing to do with a boxing ring. Having a bunch of pretty muscles, isn't going to help you if you don't know how to cut off the ring, move your head off line, anticipate where your opponents chin will be by his patterns . Getting max leverage while the target is moving. Slipping and countering. (The right way, not jumping out the way, jumping back in, or blocking then trying to counter) Fighters today are Thinking inside the ring, it isn't trained today to the point of being instinctive. And it's a very big difference.... All the fancy training in the world will not help you if your opponent is half the athlete you are, but a far better boxer. You mention Joshua and Wilder but their winded by the 5th rd, their technique goes down hill, (Esp Wilder) . When has Uysk fought a fast paced 15rd fight? Ali vs Frazier 1 Frazier lunched a left hook that dropped Ali in the 15th rd perfect form, possibly just as hard as what he landed 10 rds earlier. All the fancy training and diets, is great for bodybuilding. But the old ways of training is just as good (if not better, because big muscles makes one stiff, also creates endurance issues, it's been proven in boxing well before the body beautifuls of the last 20 yrs has come in play) and Frazier would absolutely destroy Usyk in a boxing ring. ( Maybe not in a track meet).