Usyk vs James Toney

But you completely fail to address my point about the Bellew fight. It is a matter of styles. It is a fair point here and you conveniently do not want to deal with it .

By the way, I have often picked against Toney (Hagler, Monzon, SRR, Roy Jones, Klitschko, Spinks etc). You should know way better than making unsubstantial accusations.

 

Fair enough. But he won't be able to KO Toney who has a granit chin. So based on the Bellew fight, it is only fair to say that Usyk who would have trouble against the slick and highly skilled Toney.

I had Bellew slightly ahead at the time of the stoppage. If I remember correctly so did teh officials! If Usyk has this much trouble connecting on Bellew it would be worse against Toney

 

Usyk never looked like losing to Bellew and he didn't even make the 9th round. Usyk was coming on and had figured him out. He adapts to the situation and to think the same would transpire against Toney is more than a leap. Usyk's speed, workrate and stamina would be too much to overcome and we sure know Toney ain't stopping him.

The other big factor not even addressed in the thread yet is that Usyk has 5 inches of height and 6 inches of reach on him. We aren't talking about a slow fat heavyweight here either. It's too much.

Also note my use of "virtually" in the previous post.

 

He never looked like losing against Bellew? You can't be serious, Usky was behind on the official scorecards!

John, why is it a leap to believe that something similar would transpire against Toney? To the contrary, based on styles, I believe it would be fair point based on the style of Bellew.

Speed, Workrate and Stamina - You saw how well Toney did with high worrate and excellent stamina from Jirov. Speed, not sure why you think Usyk is quicker than a former middleweight.

I am talking cruisweight not heavywight. At heayvweight I favour Usyk as well.

I take your point that Usyk might be able to adjust and pull away with a decision in the later rounds. But is also conceivable to me that Toney with harder and cleaner head shots takes it.I expect Usyk to hit a lot of air just like he did against Bellew. Would be a close fight and depend on the judges then I guess

 

Mate, Bellew didn't even get thru the 8th round. How is this looking like losing? The scores were close and Usyk had downloaded what he needed and was coming on. Christ, even Bellew has stated this.

This is where it is at - you are clutching at and holding onto the only time Usyk may have been even remotely behind after just over a handful of rounds. Toney meanwhile lost to FAR lesser fighters.

Bellew is half a foot taller than Toney for a start. Just because Usyk starts slow and was mildly behind no-where near the end of the fight sure don't give credence that Toney is going to get a lead and keep it. Usyk has seen all he needed to and had shifted gears.

Jirov couldn't carry Usyk's jockstrap. Toney was never a speed demon at the high weights.

I am talking about cruiserweight as well. So you favor Usyk at both weights? That's the way it reads. In that case we agree.

I don't think it would be a close fight and depend on the judges. Not remotely.

 

We disagree because I lean towards Toney by close decision at cruiser based on the Bellew fight. You do make a valid point about Usyk starting slowly and being able to make adjustments. However, the Bellew fight still exposed that Usyk would have trouble against Toney (who is slicker, more sophisticated and has a better chin than Bellew).

The fact that a lesser prepared Toney lost against lesser fighters like Tiberi has little bearing on the subject matter of the thread in my opinion.

There is probably no more sense in continuing this debate because both of us have exchanged arguments.

 

@THE BLADE 2 please tell me what you see in Bellew's style which reminds you of Toney.

 

Usyk both has the higher work rate (even in comparison to the Jirov bout) and the stylistic abilities to negate Toney's own workrate and counterpunching. I find it hard to pick against him here, but I do think it'd be a good fight. Toney would give Usyk a lot to think about - mainly the right hand.

 

George are you serious? One can see that Bellew was doing a poor man's imititation of Toney's style in that fight. The way he was ducking, sliding, countering with the right hand, tyring to sucker him in when on the ropes etc

 

Usyk schools Toney.

 

Well, Jirov threw over 1000 punches. Not sure if one can top that.

But I can respect your opinion. I would agree on Toney's right hand. It will connect.

 

Nobody schools an in shape Toney. Nobody. Not even Roy Jones.

 

I meant in comparison to Toney of the Jirov bout, not Jirov. I wasn't clear enough.

And I agree, I don't think any Crusier 'schools' the Toney that fought Jirov. Not even Usyk or Holyfield.

 

No, YOU can see Bellew doing a poor man's imitation of Toney. Nobody else can. Why do you think Bellew did that? Do you think he sat down and watched Toney beforehand, after coming to the conclusion that a man who lost more rounds than he won vs mobile southpaws - who also fought decades before Usyk, with no connection to him at all - was the right man to emulate?

I don't follow. He was like Toney because he used a decent defence consisting of slips and ducks, while trying to counter Usyk with a right hand? No shoulder rolls, no work trying to fight Usyk on the inside, little body work. Very few combinations. The things which made James Toney, were absent from Bellew's style. In more recent years, the shot to find a southpaw with tends to be the right cross. I don't think the arc of Tony's right resembles James' much at all, as it shouldn't given one was half a foot taller. James wouldn't be landing many straight right hand leads against a mobile guy 5" taller than him who isn't engaging. How effective was his straight right against Nunn? Not very.

BTW, Bellew wasn't trying to sucker Usyk in when he backed off to the ropes. He was trying to not get hit. He was being pressured by a man with incredible footwork who was clearly forcing a higher pace than Bellew was comfortable with to take him out later. Sure, he likely didn't want to lose those early rounds, but he understood it was of little consequence should it happen. And when it did, it wasn't. Bellew didn't want to take constant shots. He was put on the ropes, he wasn't trying to trick Usyk into walking onto anything.

The opponents of these two, who best resemble one another are Michael Nunn for Toney, and Hunter/Mchunu for Usyk. James, at his physical peak where his feet were much quicker, still massively struggled with Nunn, and needed his power to bail him out. Nunn wasn't as good as Usyk, and not half as tough. Usyk on the other hand, barely lost a round to Hunter or Mchunu by working them over and wearing them out before stringing them together in the late rounds. Usyk is a genuis, he wouldn't do that vs Toney. He'd fight how he did vs Gassiev or Głowacki, and just keep the slower man who needed to set turning. And he'd out-work Toney. Usyk threw 900+ punches vs Gassiev.

 

Well Bellew did fight in a poor man's James Toney style whether on purpose or not. I really do not know which fight you saw. And Bellew had major success in doing so because he was ahead on the official cards! It is therefore not a stretch to imply that Usyk would have difficulties with slick and more sophisticated Toney. No a stretch at all.

Again Jirov threw 1000 plus punches.Yet he could not outwork Toney.

Even a bum like Marco Huck put up a competitive fight against Usyk. You are giving guys like Bellew and Huck more credit than a master boxer like Toney- I do not get it.

Why do you think that Usyk is quicker than a former Middleweight? I do not get that either

Why do you say that Toney lost more rounds against southpaws than he won? That is factually wrong. In fact Toney has a good trackrecord against southpaws.