Usyk vs. Ken Norton

Favoring Shavers over Usyk is insanity. Usyk would have to be a massive favorite. Were talking about a guy who lost to Bob Stallings and couldn't make it out of the first round vs Quarry. Who has very very little in the way of quality wins.

 

Of course, but now everyone is KOing Usyk in the 1st round with body shot, don't you know.

 

So much to say about this one but I’ll keep it short and sweet as it’s my son’s birthday and if I don’t hurry up and help to prepare for his party he’ll probably low blow me like he’s been attempting to do since Saturday. Flipping Usyk and his dodgy belly button has a lot to answer for!

Anyway Usyk takes this on points in a decent scrap despite the aforementioned dodgy belly button.

 

I think Norton would be harder for Usyk than other more well-regarded fighters like Foreman etc. That's because Norton was a particularly good boxer with an all round skillset.

 

Yeah, I’ll give you that but Shavers only needs one clean shot and Usyk is in big trouble.

 

Good points and fair enough.

My response was probably a bit of a poorly veiled crack at the guy who said Usyk cleans out the whole 70’s heavyweight division.

That’s nonsense.

 

Fair enough mate and I can see your point on this- e.g. there's a great fighter who I think is massively overrated on here but seldom debate on it, in case I think it looks like I don't rate him. But, if you're a 'knee-jerk' reactionary (not saying you are, mind) think of it like this-
Say Usyk fought in the 70s and his career was now complete and let's say he lost 2 or 3 fights...then let's pretend Foreman-Norton in Caracas happened last Saturday- what do you think the boxing forums and the like would be saying now about Kenny? I imagine the 'knee jerkers' would be saying how overrated Norton is, how is chin is made of fine bone china and how everyone from the past would smash him too. But like I said earlier, retired fighters won't have any more bad nights.


Nothing wrong with thinking Norton could beat Usyk either, he proved vs the best boxers of his era- Holmes, Ali, Young- all of similar height to Usyk, that he could more than compete with them- that fine jab, his awkward herky-jerky style, pressure and overall strength, makes it a good fight.

 

I don't think it was low but I'm not going to debate it as I'm tired of the subject in all honesty and I've debated it enough. But what I will say is that Usyk was totally out of it shaking his head, and I don't think he could've got up within 10 seconds. But again its all speculation but judging by his condition after the shot which for me was an abdomen shot, and the fact Usyk needed over 3 minutes to recover with the referee strangely advising him to take more time ? Was all a bit bizarre for me.

But forgetting the Dubois controversy Usyk has shown a weakness to body punches, infact I can't remember another supposed P4P top fighter looking as vulnerable in the bread basket as Usyk does.

Norton is a very good body puncher with the stamina to match Usyk, and Usyk has struggled against pressure fighters in Chisora and Breidis.

I think the fact Usyk isn't a big hitter makes Norton one of his toughest opponents he could have at Heavyweight, Norton was poison for technical boxers and I'm sure Holmes and Ali hit harder than Usyk at Heavyweight and they never came close to dropping him in over 50 rounds.

 

I'll never forget all the fantasy matchups after Usyk Joshua 1, it was rather hilarious how quickly people rated him as a h2h heavyweight

 

It was a bit bizarre but still low and to say this is just going to happen again and again...well let's see, as he's going to be hit there in the next few fights I imagine. I reckon he'll be fine.

Aye B-Hop used to play the 'low blow' game a bit, maybe he had a dodgy belly too? He didn't do badly, despite this.

Yes, Kenny has underrated power, even Cobb once said he hit him harder once than Shavers hit him all night long. So he had a good whack in him (but then again, loads of heavies 'best shot' would be a powerful blow to say the least). Usyk will be hit in the guts from much bigger and heavier lads than Norton soon enough (and already has been), so watch this space. And if/when it doesn't happen, what then? Are you changing your opinion of him on a fight-by-fight basis?

 

Think you might be mistaken, I'm fairly certain Cobb said Norton once hit him as hard as Shavers ever did, but the difference was Norton did it once, and Shavers did it every time he landed. Though I very well could be wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

You think wrong, baby

Yes, there's more to the quote but I was throwing Norton a bone. I like Kenny.

 

Well i don't agree it was low but as i said i'm not debating it again, as i made a thread on it and debated for it for pages and pages and i made all valid points. Whether someone agrees with it or not is up to them, but my points still stand regarding that subject and i'm not changing my mind.

Well that's a bit different Hopkins was actually hit with legitimate shots way south of the border, although obviously they wern't hard enough to cause the effect that Hopkins made out they did. For example in the Calzaghe fight Hopkins was technically hit way south of the border, but the punch itself was a tap and Hopkins took advantage of the situation to get a rest bite.

I think that's a matter of Hopkins playing the game, rather than being effected anytime he gets touched in the abdomen like Usyk.

I've not changed my opinion on Usyk based on fight by fight basis, i never thought he was some ATG Heavyweight monster that people made him out to be. I'll literally quote you my posts from months ago where i say that he is severely untested at Heavyweight, and we need to see more evidence of him before overrating him as a Heavyweight which i think he is "Overrated at Heavyweight".

I still think he does good vs certain Heavyweights of the past, but ATG aggressive fighters like Frazier, Tyson, are bad style match ups for him. As is Norton who is poison for technical boxers and hits hard enough especially to the body, plus has the stamina to live with Usyk in later rounds. Makes Norton one of the toughest Heavyweights he could fight stylistically.

But yes certainly the Dubois fight is a bit of an eye opener, but there's other evidence of Usyk being effected to the body aswell. So it certainly seems to be a bit of an achilles heel for him, but lets see if other Heavyweight's target the body more now and see what effect it has.

 

Maybe at tennis

 

I think there are 3 x questions to answer to determine whether it was a low blow. I won't claim my answers are definitive, but I do feel these are the correct 3 x questions to ask to determine whether the blow was illegal:

1) Can a blow land above the phallus & be an illegal low blow? I've found a variety of definitions of what constitutes a low blow, including below the belly button, below the waist & below the beltline. None preclude a blow impacting directly above the John Thomas (not be confused with our esteemed fellow poster) being an illegal low blow.

2) What stage & position of the impact is material to determining the legality of the blow? There are multiple stills with Dubois's glove in different positions relative to Usyk's shorts. Because of the upward trajectory of the punch, the position on Usyk's shorts when the glove first made contact was lower than the position when the glove was last in contact. Imo, the lowest position on Usyk's shorts, at which the lowest part of Dubois's glove was in contact, should determine the legality of the blow.

3) Is there a significant gap between the top of where you'd imagine Usyk's Tockley (one for you Aussie's there, Pug) to be and the point of impact you consider material to the legality of the blow? In the photo that can be seen here - https://www.dazn.com/en-GB/news/box...es-low-blow-verdict/4pobo5e8wwei1m20kai819t4q - the extreme lowest part of Dubois's glove that makes contact, looks roughly level (though slightly to 1-side) of where I'd imagine the extreme top of Usyk's Schlong to be. Perhaps c.1-inch higher.

Given my answers to these 3 x questions, I'm inclined to agree with you that the blow was illegal, on the basis that, whilst it likely didn't actually connect with Usyk's Chopper, it couldn't have possibly been much lower without hitting his Plonker, and the way I interpret the rules are that it is possible for a blow to land above the Pecker and it still to be deemed illegally low.

p.s. I've made over 2,500 posts now & at last, I've been able to weave 7 x different ***** references into a single, genuinely boxing-related, post. I've managed 5 x different references loads of times and even squeezed in 6 x references once, during a particularly heated debate with NoNeck, but I'm tickled pink to have managed 7 at last!