Usyk's cruiserweight run counts toward his Heavyweight greatness

His CW run counts towards his overall greatness as a fighter, period. No need to mess around with technicalities for Usyk.

 

CW limit is capped. Not all CWs necessarily rehydrate to the extent that others did - some naturally fit the CW division more than others.

There are some stats for in ring weights at CW but they’re not all available by and large as far as I can see.

It appears some employ better rehydration methodologies than others - some also bend the rules in their processes for rehydration.

The rehydration and associated methods for same, (a competitive game of sports “science” in itself), don’t come into play in a sanctioned HW match.

Yes, there are differences.

 

What does it say that his cruiserweight run was way more difficult for him than his heavyweight run?

 

I think that Briedis for sure would be top 5 at HW if he went up right after the Usyk fight, he could even have been top 3 behind Usyk and Fury

 

So should his WSB fights. It's a pro league.

Look, I have been up and down the road on this, and a certain crowd will just not have it. They will out of one side of the mouth say that Sonny Liston is a "head to head" great when his best opponents were small compared to the cruisers that Usyk beat. They will conveniently forget that Louis' fourth or so best win was against Billy Conn, who came in under the LHW limit, and one of Johnson's best wins was Stanley Ketchel...another Sam Langford. But nope, the exceptional cruisers Usyk beat don't count!

Let's be real here, the excellent cruisers Usyk beat are more valuable than the bar-fighters and fringe contenders that pad out the records of Larry Holmes and Wladimir Klitschko. If somebody does not want to acknowledge that, screw them. You cares?

"Head to head great" Sonny Liston's best wins stacked up against Usyk's. Note that Liston's four best...Patterson, Patterson, Machon and Foley," aren't even big cruisers:

Glowacki- 6'0", 199, WBO Cruiser Champ
Mchunu- 5'11", 198.5, #12 WBO, #14 IBF
Hunter- 6'2", 198, #9 WBO Cruiser
Huck- 6'2", 198, #9 WBO, former champ
Briedis- 6'1", 199, WBC Cruiser Champ
Gassiev- 6'3.5", 198, IBF/WBA Cruiser Champ
Bellew- 6'3", 199, #1 WBO, , #4 WBA cruiser, former champ
Chisora- 6'1.5", 255.5, #8 WBO, #10 IBF, #11 WBA, all at heavyweight
Joshua- 6'6", 240 IBF/WBA/WBO Heavyweight Champ
Joshua- 6'6, 244.5, #4 WBO, #4 IBF #4WBA, Former Champion
Dubois- 6'5", 233, #8 WBO Heavweight (and mando somehow)
Fury-- 6'9", 262, WBC Heavyweight Champ
Fury- 6'9", 281, #1 WBC

LISTON'S BEST
Patterson- 6'0", 189, World Champion
Patterson- 6'0", 194, #1 NBA contender
Foley- 6'1",198.5, #3 NBA contender, #1 Ring Magazine
Machon- 6'0", 196, #2 NBA Contender, #3 Ranked Ring Magazine
Williams- 6'2", 215.5 Unranked
Willlams- 6'2", 210, # NBA 10 contender
Valdez- 6'3", 211, #2 Ring Magazine
Summerline 6'1", 201, Unranked
Summerline 6'1", 206, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 18, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 179, "Honorable Mention" at LHW
Wepner, 6'5", 228, Unranked
Clark, 6'3", 215, #5 NBA contender
Rischer, not listed, 200, Unranked
Bethea, 6'0", 204, #8 Ring magazine
Westphal, 5'7.5", 195, Unranked
Besmanoff, 5'11", 201, Unranked
Harris, 6'0", 195, #6 NBA, #7 Ring Magazine
Dejohn, 6'2.5", 202, #9 ranked NBA, #8 Ranked Ring Magazine

 

You've missed the point entirely.

When Ali weighed in at 215, his opponent had no limit to what he could weigh in.

When Ali weighed in at 215 they weren't in a smaller division whilst others fought in a higher division.

Usyk has fought in two divisions, CW and HW, don't conflate them.

 

You make some good points.

That being said, Fury wasn't 281. He was wearing clothes, jacket, trainers etc. My guess is he was around 274 lbs. And at least 25 lbs of that was unnecessary fat that he is carrying due to his poor habit of blowing up in weight in between fights.

 

I wouldn’t consider Louis’ 4th best win to be Conn.

It was ultimately a dramatic win but Louis was far from best performed on the night.

Someone mentioned that Usyk’s toughest fights were in the CW and asked: what does that tell us?

Just imo, it tells us that while the SHWs present greater obstacles in size, strength and power - their P4P skill sets notably depreciate in proportion to the greater size.

Compare Louis’ destruction of a behemoth like Carnera vs the difficulties a sub par Louis had against Conn. It’s simply the very nature of the P4P beast.

So, per that correlation, it could be reasonably calculated that Usyk would be having a much tougher time against ATG HWs who were in the same realm of Usyk’s own size - all legit 200 + lb’rs and HWs who weren’t having to play the drain and rehydrate game -

I’ve addressed the Liston analogy before - and Liston fought his share of some bigger guys.

I also highlighted that the average number of rounds it took for Liston to defeat his best opposition, ( even if one argues that some were comparably sized to Usyk’s best opposition at CW) was a lot less than the average number of rounds it took Usyk to defeat his best opposition (at CW) - an extremely relevant yet still omitted consideration.

 

Did anyone count Holyfields resume at Cruiserweight when evaluating his standing at Heavyweight ? No. Holyfield got ranked high P4P based on his achievements in both weight classes but that's a different thing entirely from being ranked in a single weightclass.

Cruiserweight division has a weight limit the Heavyweight division does not and they're two separate weightclasses it's as simple as that. So what if Heavyweights were smaller back then ? its two entirely different eras that you cannot compare.

I do really like Usyk but some of his fans are intolerable with the hype based on recent bias all these new arguments like......

"Usyk's amateur achievements should be used to heighten his standing as a professional"

"His Cruiserweight achievements makes him a top 10 Heavyweight"

I'm sorry but it's nonsense none of the arguments above have ever been used for any other fighter it's only now for Usyk people are starting to come out with this and quite frankly it's rubbish IMO.

 

Liston never faced anyone world class significantly bigger than him

Neither did Foreman

 

It might count if he beat accomplished HWs during said run. Like some HWs did at 175 etc. 175-200 like all weights used to be HW afterall. But Usyk hasn't. Because while CWs are really HWs fighters that can succeed at HW typically are going to fight at HW especially if they aren't the CW champion. The only HW contender Holyfield beat at CW is Ocasio the only one Haye beat is Mormeck, Usyk didn't beat any.

Gassiev couldn't beat Wallin, Hunter beat baby Bakole, Bellew was a 175er. These CW wins really don't help Usyks resume much you're just using it as a way to get around Usyk only having 7 HW fights. Which PS Usyks total career of 23 fights is still a problem from a longevity standpoint. When we talk about Beterbiev no ones under any delusions about that. But with Usyk its all "hes got nothing more to prove".

 

partly that dehydrating the 10-12lbs he likely was didn’t exactly help his athletic performance. And that starving in camp didn’t exactly help either.

Not worrying about weight, he’d probably have been 215ish when younger, much like Ali or Holmes. And now older, 225ish, also like Ali or Holmes.

there’s no way that going below 10% bf actually helps anything athletically. Especially when it requires you to starve. And that dehydration/rehydration has to hurt.

 

And what has that got to do with my post exactly ? Nothing.