Vacant Title: Heavyweight Tourney, who wins?

Round 1

1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Joe Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
3. Mike Tyson vs. Earnie Shavers
4. Larry Holmes vs. Jack Johnson
5. George Foreman vs. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Rocky Marciano vs. Shannon Briggs
7. Lennox Lewis vs. Ron Lyle
8. Sonny Liston vs. Joe Louis
9. Evander Holyfield vs. Ken Norton
10. Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey

Round 2

1. Ali vs Riddick Bowe
2. Ruddock vs Holyfield
3. Tyson vs Liston
4. Holmes vs Lewis
5. Klitschko vs Marciano


Round 3

1. Bowe vs Klitschko
2. Holyfield vs Holmes
3. Tyson vs Jeffries

Round 4

1. Klitschko vs Holmes

Final - Title Fight

Holmes vs. Tyson

Holmes by Decision in his prime

Yes, I realize some of my choices are off base to what you guys would normally pick, but I was going on head to head and how they matched up rather than their ATG status.

 

Round 1:


Ali UD Walcott
Frazier TKO 8 Ruddock
Tyson KO 2 Shavers
Holmes UD Johnson
Foreman TKO 3 Klitschko
Marciano TKO 9 Briggs
Lewis KO 6 Lyle
Louis TKO 5 Liston
Holyfield TKO 10 Norton
Dempsey TKO 4 Bowe



Round 2:


Ali UD Dempsey
Frazier UD Holyfield
Louis TKO 10 Tyson
Lewis UD Holmes
Marciano TKO 8 Foreman


Round 3:


Ali UD Marciano
Lewis TKO 8 Frazier
Louis TKO 15 Jeffries



Round 4:


Lewis UD Ali



Final:


Louis TKO 5 Lewis



Winner:




JOE LOUIS

 

Riddick Bowe is good enough to beat Dempsey, and then Ali but is then stopped by Vladimir Klitchsko:admin

I am also surprised that the still unproven Klitchsko, who has been KOd by the biggest punchers he faced - Brewster and Sanders. Is considered good enough to beat George Foreman (arguably the biggest puncher ever), Marciano ( i assume the reach argument applied although i note it didnt stop marciano from beating the similarly sized Shannon Briggs), Riddick Bowe, all huge punchers. Then when he was finally beaten, it was by Larry Holmes a fighter with out that great a punch and a fighter whose style (i would imagine) seems reasonably difficult to use against a fighter with a longer reach and who uses the jab and grab regularly. Also, Holmes has been known to be caught by lesser fighters and relies on his heart to win. All in all, some very difficult to understand predictions even allowing for the fact that you obviously subscribe to the modern fighters are better theory.

 

What?

Definitely improved since then. As shown in the rematch with Brewster. He had stamina issues more than anything in his younger days.

Foreman had trouble with boxers of that nature. He got outboxed thoroughly by Young for Christ's sake. he had trouble with boxers. If you came to him, he would whoop you.

You agree that the argument could be implied. Here's the difference between Briggs and Wlad. Wlad is good, Briggs isn't. :thumbsup

Bowe was better on the inside, but by my estimation, not good enough on the outside to deal with Wlad. He was being outboxed from range by Holyfield, and Wlad would be able to better implement his gameplan and stay out of a brawl than Holyfield.

Holmes is better than Wlad in every way the way I see it. He didn't have a different style to beat him, just had his style better. The better jab, the better movement, etc.

Ok, your point?

Based on what? Not at all, I simply subscribe to the theory that I will be true to myself. Look at my choices in the Light Heavyweight thread. Bowe has a tough style for someone like Ali.

However, upon further review of that fight, I may have to change my pick. It just depends on how well Ali can do from the outside, as he often got reckless. Certain fighters I feel match up badly for Ali, even if he is clearly resume-wise the best HW ever.

Heavyweights are harder to judge against old Heavyweights because the greats of our era(and there are few) are so much bigger than the greats of past eras. This doesn't apply to the other weight classes as much.

 

ok, I'll play!

Ali
Frazier
Tyson
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Lewis
Louis
Holyfield
Dempsey

Ali vs. Dempsey...would be close, Ali
Frazier over Holyfield
Louis over Tyson
Holmes over Lewis
Foreman over Rocky

Ali over Foreman
Holmes over Frazier
Louis ud over Jeffries

Holmes UD Ali

Louis TKO Holmes

Louis champ. (hope I did that right)

 

Interesting analysis. Clearyly though, you overrate Klitchsko massively, more because of his potential than what he has done so far. I guess your belief that it was stamina, could perhaps in some ways justify your selections. But i fail to see how his win against Brewster proves anything. Vlad dominated first time around until he was caught with a big shot that turned the fight. He dominated again second time around. Brewster was never considered that good until the Vlad fight and he really is just an average fighter (on a world class level) with a big hit and good chin. If he fought any other all time great champion in this tournament (possible exception of shannon Briggs) Brewster would lose virtually every round, but may catch a few with the big punch that turns the fight, with any luck.

Vlad is a very good offensive fighter but he isnt yet proved at the world class (all time great) level. He has shown that he is capable of dominating solid contenders but every time a bigger hitter has landed on him, he has been in trouble. Sam Peter, Brewster, Sanders, Purity have all knocked him down. And unlike other greats like Holmes, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, Klitchsko has not demonstrated an ability to get back up and fight. Yes, he has beaten some big hitters recently (so his chin isnt totally jelly) but he has not shown an ability to stand up to big hitters. Against Foreman, Marciano and Bowe if he is going to win, he is going to have to face being hit and hurt many times. Never has ever fought a fight where they havent landed hard and regularly. At some point, no matter how good vlad fights, he will be hit as hard or harder than he was hit by Brewster, Sanders etc. And no matter how good Vlad is, he will not shut out these guys. If Vlad is to win, he will need to show great offence after he has been hurt. He has not yet proved capable of doing this.

As a Vlad fan, i am sure that you would agree that the worst type of fighter for him to face is someone who he cannot hurt with his power and who is able to land against him well enough to crack Vlad's chin. I would have thought that Foreman, Marciano and Bowe. would be three of the biggest challenges for him, if not the biggest 3, from a head to head perspective. Likewise, it is interesting that you say that Larry does everything Vlad does but better. Yet Larrys long range rights and lefts are nowhere near as powerful as Vlads. Admittedly he has a faster jab. Given that Larry was often hurt, and Vlad's offence is so capable of hurting Larry, plus the fact that Larry doesnt have the same punchers chance that someone like say a tyson or Dempsey or Foreman or Bowe has, i would have thought that if did have any head to head stylistic advantages this is it. I do think Holmes would beat Vlad, but at the right odds i would back Vlad, if this fight was made tomorrow.

 

Title: Vacant

Round 1

1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott
Ali SD. Jersey Joe causes Ali some problems early on, and just when ali gets back into cruise mode Walcott hurts him again. Still, Ali shows ring generalship and heart to eek out a raxor thin 'draw'

2. Joe Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
Ruddock starts off hard and fast but, cannot hurt Joe. By the seventh round, Joes boddy shots and hooks leave their mark. Frazier KO 6

3. Mike Tyson vs. Earnie Shavers
Tyson attacks hard and early. Shavers does land with some big shots but is forced into survival mode. This looks a lot like Tyson v Smith. Tyson UD15

4. Larry Holmes vs. Jack Johnson
Very close and even fight. Holmes struggles in having to come forward a little and Johnson's grappling style takes Larry a little way to adjust. To a large extent Johnson's uppercut and grab slows down and neutralises a frustrated Holmes, who cant seem to land clean or hurt Johnson. Johnson MD15

5. George Foreman vs. Wladimir Klitschko
Foreman lands hard and early Klitschko tries to move and grab but cannot keep the younger Foreman off, and due to trying to neutralise Georges power, he cant land himself. Foreman KO3.

6. Rocky Marciano vs. Shannon Briggs
Briggs tries to jab and move (a little like he did against old foreman). When this doesnt work, he tries to grab and use his size and weight. Marciano just does the same set and hit routine he always does. Rocky KO5


7. Lennox Lewis vs. Ron Lyle
Lewis dominates this fight like he did the Tyson and Tua fights. Lyle is forced into his shell and cannot land big. Lewis UD.

8. Sonny Liston vs. Joe Louis
Tough, tough fight to predict. Sonny with the size and reach advantage and probably a better Jab. Louis, with the better combination punching. Both guys able to land cleanly, though ironically Sonny can move around a little better. Louis definitely hurts Sonny, but unlike the Ali fight, Sonny is still landing and hurting Louis in return. I think Sonny builds up a slight early lead, and louis is definitely hit harder than he has ever been hit, or at least on par witht he Schmelling 1 fight, Being a great though Louis is expected to come back like he did against Conn and others and Liston expected to fight. By the 15th though, i think Sonny hangs on. Liston SD15

9. Evander Holyfield vs. Ken Norton
Great Evenly matched fight. Evander leads early on and seems to handle Norton well. But in the later rounds he stops boxing and starts trading punch for punch in an attempt to outpower and outslug Norton. Neither figher able to deeply trouble the other fighter too much. Holfyield wins in md 15.


10. Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey
Dempsey rushes out the same way he did against Willard. He lands often and hard. Bowe refuses to go down and soaks up punishment before dropping Dempsey, like in the firpo fight this is see sawing. Dempsey regainst composure andcontinues attacking Bowe. Eventually riddick is dropped after a see sawing fight, the fight is stopped in the 5th.



Round 2

Winner of:

A) 1 vs 10
Ali vs Dempsey
Ali fights like Tunney, and like he did against Liston. Try as he might, Dempsey cannot land often. And when he does he is surprised that he cannot hurt Ali much at all. The referee stops the fight in the 9th.

B) 2 vs 09
Frazier vs Holyfield
How many evenly matched fights has this tournament thrown up. Joe Frazier works hard and both land regularly. Frazier wins a razor thin decision. sd15

C) 3 vs 08

Tyson v Liston
This could go either way, also. the liston jab does utilise Tyson, but the lightning quick tyson combos do hurt Liston. Liston starts to build up a lead around the 9th. Tyson drops Liston late, but Liston survives. Liston md 15


D) 4 vs 07
Johnson vs Lewis
Tough to pick. Johnson is troubled by Lewis and he cant assert as much dominance as he is used to in the clinches. Lewis does seem to hurt Johnson when he does land. Eventually Johnson gets frustrated and tries an all out attack like he did with Ketchell. Louis is surprised by the ferocity but manages to see out the round and eventually lands and hurts johnson. Lewis KO12


E) 5 vs 06
Foreman v Marciano.
One awesome fight. Foreman lands hard and drops Marciano early. Rocky sticks to his simple pattern. Foreman builds up a big lead and dominates the early going, massively. Foreman opens up several cuts on Marciano which are causing properly. By the 12th round, Rocky is down on points and bleeding badly but starting to dominate adn look like winning by knockout, when the Doctor controverally stops the fight due to cuts.



Round 3

Winner of:

A vs. E
Ali vs Foreman
Foreman is much more focused this time around. He is desperate to win, and he wont be out psyched. Problem is that the Ali he meets is much quicker than the last one he met. Ali dominates and Foreman is surprised that he cant hurt him. the referee stops the fight in the 8th when Foreman is being battered. Ali tko 8

B vs. D
Frazier vs Lewis
Lewis tries to use his size. Frazier bangs away at the body and then the head. Lewis builds an early lead but by the 5th he starts to struggle with Fraziers workrate. Frazier lands more often as the fight gets longer, and even when Lewis does land big, Frazier shrugs it off and keeps coming. Frazier gets a close but unanimous ud15.

C vs. Jim Jeffries
Not sure what happened here. Jim Jeffries stepped out of retirement halfway through the tourney to save the white race? Anyway, this time, Jeffries is prime and he is fresher than the other fighters. Problem is that Liston is probably one of his toughest challengers head to head. Neither of these will take a backward step, both come straight ahead, although Liston has slightly better lateral movement, Jeffries is quicker. Liston starts to work up a lead but Jeffries wont give in and keeps coming forward, in the final round, with Liston looking like winning, Jeffries catches Liston with the same punch he caught Corbett with. Jeffries KO15

Round 4

Winner of:

A/E vs. B/D

Frazier vs Ali
The fight of the century but this time Ali is much quicker and lasts longer. Still a great close fight, but Ali does evertything that little bit better. AliUD15.

Final - Title Fight

Winner of Round 4 vs. Winner of "C" vs. Jeffries

Ali vs Jeffries.
both were thought to be the greatest ever by most fans, when they retired. Neither was beaten in their prime, though both were beaten when past their best and proved even when outgunned, they would just keep coming on.

Ali made his name beating big hitting sluggers. Jeffries was the ultimate big hitter, but he was also very quick and had amazing stamina for a big man. Ali starts with lead rights like in the foreman fight, but jeffries jab is much quicker and he takes the early rounds because of this. Ali then has to try to move and eventually finds a rhythmn, able to stick and move for a few rounds. Still, Jeffries is controlling the clinches and Ali is not used to this. Jeffries excessive clinching is forcing Ali to retreat to the rope a dope style tactic, and this is costing him some rounds and it is doubtful Jeffries will tire. Eventually during the late rounds Ali, being the great general he is, settles on boxing Jeffries at range with lateral movement and final starts to find a way around the clinching which was neutralising ali's elasticity. In the late rounds Ali starts to dominate things but jeffries absorbs all punishment and ends on his feet.

The result - a Split decision, to Jeffries. With the roundsthrown away by Ali on roping a dope, and/or the inability to get a knock down, costing Ali decision.

Jim Jeffries is champion of the world.

 

I overrate Wlad but you don't do the same for Jeffries? Anyways, I'm too tired to argue a big, long-winded post right now, maybe tomorrow.

 

Round 1
Muhammad Ali UD Jersey Joe Walcott
Joe Frazier TKO6 Razor Ruddock
Mike Tyson KO2 Earnie Shavers
Larry Holmes UD Jack Johnson
George Foreman TKO5 Wladimir Klitschko
Rocky Marciano TKO8 Shannon Briggs
Lennox Lewis TKO6 Ron Lyle
Joe Louis TKO11 Sonny Liston
Evander Holyfield TKO10 Ken Norton
Jack Dempsey TKO7 Riddick Bowe

Round 2
Muhammad Ali UD Jack Dempsey
Joe Frazier UD Evander Holyfield
Joe Louis TKO8 Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis SD Larry Holmes
George Foreman TKO3 Rocky Marciano

Round 3
Muhammad Ali TKO8 George Foreman
Lennox Lewis UD Joe Frazier
Joe Louis UD Jim Jeffries

Round 4
Muhammad Ali UD Lennox Lewis

Final
Muhammad Ali UD Joe Louis

CHAMPION: Muhammad Ali

 

First, if this is meant to be an "all-time championship"-type hypothetical tournament, your choice of roster is very poor. Shannon Briggs and Razor Ruddock instead of Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles, Max Schmeling, Harry Wills, Tim Witherspoon, Jerry Quarry, Sam Langford, Elmer Ray, etc.??? There are gobs of better choices than those guys for an all-time heavyweight tourney.

Ali MD 15 Walcott- Walcott's style is very perplexing for Ali, and Jersey Joe may get in an early knockdown, but Ali ultimately is more consistent and outworks Walcott in a few crucial rounds

Frazier KO 9 Ruddock- Frazier could potentially be hurt or floored early, but takes over the fight by the middle rounds and beats Ruddock to a pulp by the end

Tyson KO 1 Shavers- Shavers has the puncher's chance, but unless he lands a fluke haymaker, Tyson utterly wipes him out

Holmes SD 15 Johnson- Very close, likely very boring fight, Holmes pulls it out on his jab and superior activity

Foreman KO 2 Klitschko- bad match-up for Wlad, Foreman tears him apart

Marciano KO 5 Briggs- Briggs potentially puts up a good fight for a couple rounds, but his terrible stamina and weak chin give way before Marciano's relentless offense and monstrous power before long

Lewis TKO 6 Lyle- Lewis gives Lyle some respect early, starts to break him down and sets him up for a knockout in the middle rounds, ala Morrison

Louis TKO 10 Liston- close match through the early and middle rounds, Louis may encounter some rough patches and have a fight to survive at times, but ultimately his better speed, combination punching, endurance and intangibles win it out as Liston starts breaking down in the middle rounds and then Louis pours it on for the stoppage

Holyfield UD 15 Norton- entertaining fight, Norton gives Holyfield a good go of it but comes up short against Evander's durability, speed, versatility and incredible heart

Dempsey KO 5 Bowe- Dempsey loves bigger men, batters Bowe's body on the inside, scores multiple knockdowns and finishes him early-middle rounds

Ali SD 15 Dempsey- thrilling fight, Dempsey keeps Ali going backwards all night, potentially floors him once or twice with big hooks, Ali makes a strong surge in the late rounds to pull out the verdict

Frazier TKO 13 Holyfield- blood-and-guts death match, Holyfield likely ahead after 7-8 rounds, Frazier's superior punching power, workrate and endurance allow him to ultimately beat Evander into submission and stop an utterly exhausted Holyfield very late

Louis KO 8 Tyson- Louis establishes the jab and straight right hand in the early-going and dictates the pace, discourages Tyson and mashes his face up, and closes the show in the middle rounds

Holmes UD 15 Lewis- the swifter, busier and more durable Holmes holds close through the first half of the fight and takes control down the stretch

Foreman TKO 4 Marciano- wild slugfest, Marciano has his moments and roughs Foreman up more than a little, but ultimately George has the stylistic edge and enough size, strength and power that he puts Rocky down a couple times before the referee stops the fight

Ali KO 8 Foreman- actually happened, past-prime Ali dismantled George

Frazier UD 15 Holmes- Frazier's pressure is all wrong for Holmes, he murders him to the body, has him going late and takes a close, but clear-cut decision

Louis UD 15 Jeffries- Louis is wary of Jeffries hook, consistently more technically sound, busts Jeffries up with jabs and sharp uppercuts

All right, that's all I'm typing tonight.

 

Briggs and Bowe ,huge punchers?,who did Briggs ko apart from a washed up Mercer and a mediocre |Russian?.neither was Bowe a huge puncher ,a good hitter yes ,huge ,no.

 

Earnie Shavers :yikes

 

Louis KO Lewis 5 rounds?