Vacant Title: Heavyweight Tourney, who wins?

Title: Vacant

Round 1

1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott - Ali via UD
2. Joe Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock - Frazier via TKO
3. Mike Tyson vs. Earnie Shavers - Tyson via KO
4. Larry Holmes vs. Jack Johnson - Holmes via TKO
5. George Foreman vs. Wladimir Klitschko - Foreman via TKO
6. Rocky Marciano vs. Shannon Briggs- Marciano via TKO ( Briggs is here? )
7. Lennox Lewis vs. Ron Lyle - Lewis via TKO
8. Sonny Liston vs. Joe Louis - Liston via TKO
9. Evander Holyfield vs. Ken Norton - Norton via SD
10. Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey - Demspey via TKO

Round 2

Winner of:

A) 1 vs 10 Ali via UD
B) 2 vs 09 Frazier via TKo
C) 3 vs 08 Liston via TKO
D) 4 vs 07 Holmes via SD
E) 5 vs 06 Foreman via TKO


Round 3

Winner of:

A vs. E Ali via TKo
B vs. D Holmes via TKO
C vs. Jim Jeffries, Jeffries via TKO

Round 4

Winner of:

A/E vs. B/D Holmes via UD

Final - Title Fight

Winner of Round 4 vs. Winner of "C" vs. Jeffries - Holmes SD over Jeffries

 

I am not sure that it is possible to overate a champion like Jim Jeffries. He retired as undefeated heavyweight champion of the world. He cleaned out his division. It is quite possible to rate him as the greatest ever (something i believe that only about 12 people really have claims to) and not overate the guy. It comes down to personal opinion, but he did do enough to show that he has a claim as the best ever that is undoubtable. Vlad, on the other hand, has not even showed that he is the best of his time yet, let alone established all time great status. In fact, he has not even demonstrated that he is capable of taking a heavyweights punch (certainly not to the same level as say a Bob Fitzsimmons, Sam Langford, Gene Tunney or Michael Spinks has proved), yet you have him beating all time greats left right and centre.

Jeffries retired as unbeaten champion. He beat the two former world champions Fitzsimmons and Corbett. Both of whom were considered top 10 All time greats by most people at the time, although admittedly they were a little old. He beat Peter Jackson who, while old was still a top 10 all time great at the time. On the way up, he admittedly drew with Choynski, but this was a top 20 ATG of the time (arguably higher) and most reports had Jeffries winning the fight but it was a draw because that is what usually happened when there was no knockout in those days. Jeffries pretty much cleaned the division out and was left with no real challengers to his crown as the greatest of his time. When he retired, many contemporaries considered him as the greatest ever, in fact, they considered him this highly before he retired. When Jeffries came out of retirement, he was totally outclassed by an ATG top 5 fighter, yet he still lasted 15 rounds, the shows an astonishing heart and chin. And would suggest that it would have taken a truck to stop a prime jeffries (who was never even knocked down in his prime).

Let us compare Klitchsko. Big and talented as he seems at the time. (when rating atg status, it is probably fair to him not to consider fighters longer than say 20). His first loss was to Ross Purity, not even a top 100 atg. His next loss was to Corrie Sanders, lucky to be a top 50 atg. His next loss was to Lamon Brewster, also lucky to be a top 50 atg. His best win was against Chris Byrd. Byrd would probably be a top 20 atg, although admittedly he was getting a little old. He has some other wins over guys like Samuel Peter, Calvin Brock, Jameel Mcline, etc these guys would probably be somewhere between top 50 and top 100 fighters. He hasnt fought the biggest challenger of his era, who most people rate as the no 1 in his era - Vitali Klitchsko, although history does show us that Vitali seems to have a much better record against common opponents. He has also never fought any previous lineal title holders like Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson although now it would be too late to fight any of those, admittedly. If Klitchsko retired tomorrow, nobody would rate him an ATG and only some would rate him as the best of his time. Many actually would not rate him a top 50 atg and (arguably) with some justification. Klitchsko has not yet proved he is anywhere near the same class as Jim Jeffries.

 

both are absolutely massive fighters. They are powerful and do hit hard. (how good they hit is obviously debatable). I didnt necessarilly mean huge as in the same class as say George Foreman or Mike Tyson, but they definitely hit hard, if they are able to land. They can hurt any fighter if they land. It is arguable, of course, that neither (particularly Briggs) would be able to land very often on most semi decent defensive fighters. The point regarding Briggs though, is that the biggest argument in a Vlad / Rocky fight is that the 20 inch (or whatever it is) reach advantage is simply too big for rocky to get around. My point of mentioning Briggs was that if This was to be a major problem for Rocky, he would have lost to Briggs for the same reason. He didnt. Regarding Bowe, I also pointed out that if he were good enough to beat Dempsey, you would have to think that he is going to be right in a fight with Klitchsko and certainly that he would land solidly often enough to test Klitchkso and that it is unlikely that klitchsko's power would discourage him, if Dempsey's apparently didnt.

 

Louis is an ATG but knocking out a fast and powerful Tyson, who imo has better speed and power v.s. a flat footed Louis. Tyson KO him in 4. Tyson is not perfect or the greatest champion but he beats Louis. I feel that people here deep down know Tyson has the best chance of winning

 

Which punchers did Foreman beat though? We're talking about him at his prime right?
He faced Frazier, not really a puncher, but an attrition puncher. Norton barely landed on him (Wlad would take him out just the same).
Then the first real puncher he faces is Lyle, who by the way, only managed to stop Shavers (glass chin) and went the distance with all other decent fighters he faced, unless he was knocked out himself.
Lyle drops Foreman nearly twice and Foreman is arguably saved by the bell. Foreman impressively comes back but narrowly escapes defeat.

And that's it, those are all punchers he faced. What he did in his second career is irrevelant because he was a totally different fighter then, fundamentally.

Wlad is in a different league than Lyle when it comes to punching and poses a much harder stylistic matchup because he's a fighter who fights tall, throws long straight punches and ties him up when close, just like Young and Ali did. Ali couldn't miss Foreman with his leaky defense when he threw straight punches and neither would Wlad.

The only one who really knocked out Wlad was Sanders. He punched himself out or did too much weight training for Brewster, Brewster couldn't even knock him down when he could hardly keep himself on his feet. Back then he only sparred 4 hard rounds in a row and weights but did too little on conditioning. He dominated Brewster in the rematch just like he did during the first fight, only this time he didn't gas. Same story with Purrity.

By the way, you seem to write Brewster off as ordinairy or second rate, but i he's certainly off the level of Lyle who nearly beat Foreman. The only disadvantage Brewster has here is that he doesn't get great recognition for getting beat up by Ali and Foreman like Lyle does.


Wlad has improved a lot since the Sanders and Brewster fights. Now it is very possible for Foreman to stop him like Sanders did, but i don't see this matchup as a certainty at all. The only decent puncher who landed on Foreman nearly had him out and Wlad has more power and better delivery than any of them. On top of that, a light puncher like Young shook him up and dropped him later, and another light puncher in Ali knocked him out.

 

Here's my take:

Round 1:

Ali vs. Walcott (Ali, UD)
Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock (Frazier, TKO7)
Tyson vs. Shavers (Tyson, KO2)
Holmes vs. Johnson (Holmes, UD)
Foreman vs. W.Klitschko (Foreman, TKO4)
Marciano vs. Briggs (Marciano, KO8 )
Lewis vs. Lyle (Lewis, KO7)
Liston vs. Louis (Liston, SD)
Holyfield vs. Norton (Holyfield, close UD)
Bowe vs. Dempsey (Bowe, TKO7)

Round 2:

Ali vs. Bowe (Ali, UD)
Frazier vs. Holyfield (Frazier, SD)
Tyson vs. Liston (Liston, TKO10)
Holmes vs. Lewis (Holmes, close UD)
Foreman vs. Marciano (Foreman, TKO3)

Round 3:

Ali vs. Foreman (Ali, KO8. Just like it was anyway)
Holmes vs. Frazier (Holmes, close UD)
Liston vs. Jeffries (Liston, UD)

Round 4:

Ali vs. Holmes (Ali, SD)

Final - Title Fight:

Ali vs. Liston (Ali, UD)


Muhammad Ali: Champ

 

1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott - ALI TKO14
2. Joe Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock - FRAZIER UD12
3. Mike Tyson vs. Earnie Shavers - TYSON KO1
4. Larry Holmes vs. Jack Johnson - HOLMES SD15
5. George Foreman vs. Wladimir Klitschko - FOREMAN KO4
6. Rocky Marciano vs. Shannon Briggs - MARCIANO TKO11
7. Lennox Lewis vs. Ron Lyle - LEWIS UD12
8. Sonny Liston vs. Joe Louis - LOUIS SD15
9. Evander Holyfield vs. Ken Norton - HOLYFIELD UD15
10. Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey - DEMPSEY TKO14

Round 2

Winner of:

A) ALI V DEMPSEY - ALI UD15
B) FRAZIER V HOLY - HOLY MD15
C) TYSON V LOUIS - LOUIS KO10
D) HOLMES V LEWIS - HOLMES SD12
E) FOREMAN V ROCK - FOREMAN KO5


Round 3

Winner of:

ALI V FOREMAN - ALI UD15
HOLY V HOLMES - HOLMES SD15
LOUIS vs. Jim Jeffries - LOUIS UD15

Round 4

Winner of:

ALI V HOLMES - ALI SD15

Final - Title Fight

ALI V LOUIS - ALI UD15

 

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Title: Vacant

Round 1

1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Joe Frazier vs. Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
3. Mike Tyson vs. Earnie Shavers
4. Larry Holmes vs. Jack Johnson
5. George Foreman vs. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Rocky Marciano vs. Shannon Briggs
7. Lennox Lewis vs. Ron Lyle
8. Sonny Liston vs. Joe Louis
9. Evander Holyfield vs. Ken Norton
10. Riddick Bowe vs. Jack Dempsey

Round 2

Winner of:

A) 1 vs 10 Ali vs Dempsey. Winner Ali.
B) 2 vs 09 Frazier vs Holy. A WAR. Frazier comes out on top.
C) 3 vs 08 Tyson VS Liston. Liston
D) 4 vs 07 Holmes VS Lewis. Holmes.
E) 5 vs 06 Foreman vs Briggs. lol. Briggs couldn't beat an ancient Foreman.


Round 3

Winner of:

A vs. E Ali VS Foreman. Ali wins.
B vs. D Frazier VS Holmes. Frazier wins.
C vs. Jim Jeffries. Liston vs Jeffries.

Round 4

Winner of:

A/E vs. B/D Ali VS Frazier. Gonna go against the grain here and pick Frazier.

Final - Title Fight

Winner of Round 4 vs. Winner of "C" vs. Jeffries Liston VS Frazier. "like shooting fish in a barrel." Liston is your new champion!