Vasiliy Lomachenko Vs. Floyd Mayweather Jr. @ Lightweight — Who Wins?

Don't backpedal.

You very clearly claimed that Haney landed more combinations and counterpunches than I remembered (re-read your posts). Sorry, my guy, but both my eyes and the punch stats confirm that I saw the Haney-Loma fight accurately and objectively. Haney did some good work but was scarcely landing with the kind of regularity you seem to believe. Someone might be misremembering that fight, but it ain't me.

Linares threw 300 more punches??? And?

You laughed when I originally suggested that Loma struggled with Linares, but I'm glad to see you've come around and now acknowledge that Loma did in fact struggle with Linares.

If Haney felt he could bully Loma, it certainly didn't translate into more power punches, considering that Loma threw nearly 100 more.

I never suggested that you ignore the Nakatani fight. Rather, I noted that Loma's performance-- utterly blitzing a long, tall opponent-- was anomalous, and it was. Again, I never stated that length and reach was Loma's kryptonite, only that both have troubled him in fights. I then provided multiple examples (Linares, Haney, Ortiz) of that fact. So my original point stands.

 

That part is true, he must've been landing more in the pocket than you remember since you have this idea than Loma struggled most at distance. But the part of the post you specifically replied referred to punches thrown because the intent would still be there.

Linares didn't win more than 3, he was never ahead in the fight, got stopped, so what does it prove ?

It's not anamolous you just know the example flies in the face of the notion that height and reach was the biggest struggle here, Loma is good as breaking down and overwealming taller fighters who stay behind a jab look at Loma vs Commey if you want another example.

Threw 30% more punches than Haney, landed 15 punches more by the end of it, probably less in reality, you're proving my point. Haney was scoring at all ranges until the final rounds, made Loma miss more than anyone and it was close. It's a strange hill to stand on, Floyd gives him the work regardless of your stance

 

Congratulations....you've shifted from backpedaling to revisionism. You claimed that Haney landed more combinations and counterpunches than I remembered. Period. End of story. GO BACK AND READ YOUR OWN WORDS, my guy.

Now, however, when I presented you with Haney's rather unimpressive punch landed stats--a metric you used to measure performance when it suited you-- to very clearly prove otherwise, you're attempting to pivot and add caveats about "punches thrown," intent, etc.

Haney landed about what I've been suggesting all along--not a whole hell of a lot, contrary you your claims.

First, you laughed when I noted that Loma struggled with Linares, then you acknowledged that he had, and now you're suggesting once again that he didn't ? I honestly I don't know how you keep it all straight (I sure as sh*t can't LOL). The Linares fight is an example of a longer, rangier guy troubling Loma (the point you briefly conceded and are now refuting again).

Loma dropped and outclassed Commey, similar in many respects to the Pedraza fight. I would argue that he blitzed Nakatani, something he was unable to do to Commey or Pedraza, or Ortiz, Campbell, Haney, or even Linares (a fight he was losing on one scorecard and tied on another) for that matter. So, yeah, I'd say the Nakatani result was anomalous.

Do you even know what your point is, let alone mine?? LOL Loma missed a lot in the Haney fight. And?? When did I insist that he was particularly accurate that night? I simply stated that his troubles had more to do with Haney's length and reach (size, if you'd prefer a catch-all term) than his supposed slickness, a point you've long since conceded. Likewise, I have already agreed that Floyd wins at 135lbs.

So what hill, exactly, am I dying on???

Similarly, I never stated Loma struggled at distance against Haney. That's a strawman or a misunderstanding of my point about Loma and taller, rangier fighters. Loma prefers (and does his best work at mid range) due in no small part to his lack of reach. Consequently, he employs his feet and angles to close the distance, get in range, and create opportunities. The distances he needs to manipulate are generally greater against longer, rangier fighers, making it more difficult---note I didn't SAY IMPOSSIBLE--to get where he needs to be when he needs to be there to generate offense. That task becomes more challenging (again, NOT IMPOSSIBLE) the more athletic /fast, mobile, defensively responsible etc an opponent is.

 

The judges had Haney winning too, but no fan i know had Linares ahead or even tied, thats trash scoring. Linares got beat up over the distance and stopped, it was his speed and rather volume, not his length, It means nothing anyway, Loma dismantled Commey, whitewashed Nakatani. No, these are 3 different examples of Loma handling a taller longer guy, and 2 examples of him completely dominating them

You already conceeded that Loma threw 30% more and just landed a few more punches over the fight. That has to mean Haneys defense was superior from an unbiased perspective it is literal statistics. Haney used upperbody movement or footwork to evade + the body was always open. Rewatch the fight Haney wasn't even fighting tall or trying to box away the majority of it. You're just making excuses for Loma not being able to replicate what he did to Linares, Commey, and Nakatani on Haney when Nostrils height reach isn't even the longest on this list nor does he hit hard.

But lets say you're correct, not only can much bigger guys with power trouble Loma, but apparently a feather fist who fights on the backfoot can also beat Lomachenko, okay got it. It's a strange hill to die on, look at the title of the thread, what is the point of this ? Loma would get beat up everything you say only confirms it. Haneys defense is crap compared to Mayweathers and still made Loma miss more than anyone before

 

The judges had Haney winning too, but no fan i know had Linares ahead or even tied, thats trash scoring. Linares got beat up over the distance and stopped, it was his speed and rather volume, not his length, It means nothing anyway, Loma dismantled Commey, whitewashed Nakatani. No, these are 3 different examples of Loma handling a taller longer guy, and 2 examples of him completely dominating them

Even if you disagree with the judges decision in the Haney fight, which I did, it's obvious the fight was highly competitive. Likewise, however one scored the Linares fight, it was extremely competitive, so competitive in fact that you had to admit Loma did struggle before you reverted back to your original assertion that he didn't.

And here are three examples in which Loma struggled with a longer, taller guy: Linares, Ortiz, and Haney. What do Haney, Ortiz, and Linares all have in common? Well, they're all fast and athletic, attributes I specifically cited as factors that make the prospect of closing distance and operating at Loma's preferred distance more difficult. Nakatani and Commey are neither fast nor athletic.

Again, I never claimed size (length and reach) alone accounted for Loma's struggle against Haney. Rather, I merely argued it played a greater role than Haney's supposed slickness, another point you've since acknowledged, since neither one of us consider Haney slick (although, given your flipflopping and the transient nature of some of your arguments, I'm not entirely certain of even that at the moment. lol).

You already conceeded that Loma threw 30% more and just landed a few more punches over the fight. That has to mean Haneys defense was superior from an unbiased perspective it is literal statistics. Haney used upperbody movement or footwork to evade + the body was always open.

Haney is solid defensively, and he was certainly defensively responsible that night. I never said otherwise. Your problem, however, is that you're conflating solid defensively/defensively responsible with slickness. Pernell Whittaker is slick; Devin Haney is not.

Haney's ability to hit Loma at range, particularly to the body, as a result of his length and reach (as well as his speed) certainly had a disruptive effect on Loma's offense. If you can speed a guy up and break his rhythm, you can adversely effect his efficiency.

You're just making excuses for Loma not being able to replicate what he did to Linares, Commey, and Nakatani on Haney when Nostrils height reach isn't even the longest on this list nor does he hit hard.

How so? I've stated many times that I believe Loma won the fight. So ....why would I have to make excuses??

Why didn't Loma blitz Haney like he did Commey and Nakatani? Ummm....perhaps because Haney is much better than both in addition to being tall and rangy (two characteristics that have troubled Loma in the past)?? The guy down the street from me is 6'0; I don't think he could beat Loma on the basis of height and reach alone and never intimated as much.

But lets say you're correct, not only can much bigger guys with power trouble Loma, but apparently a feather fist who fights on the backfoot can also beat Lomachenko

Was Haney coming forward, throwing lots of power shots because he thought he could bully Loma, or was he fighting off his backfoot against Loma? You've argued both, and I cannot always keep track of what your arguments are. I and a majority of observers believe Loma didn't lose to Haney.

okay got it. It's a strange hill to die on

The only thing dying here, my guy, is this jumbled mismash of a back-and-forth. You've kept it civil throughout, however, and for that I tip my hat.

 

Mayweather by stoppage

 

My "quote" feature wasn't working in my previous post, so I blocked your quotes in bold.

(Stoppage? Probably not, but I can see a clear decision).