Vasquez - Marquez as exciting and close as the fights were...P4P

Klitscko???? No way.

Here are the guys I have ahead of him, other then your other 9:
(In no particular order)

Winky Wright
Oscar De La Hoya
Shane Mosley
Rafael Marquez
Alexander Munoz

 

Yet, on the basis of what I've seen from PBF, he can raise his game to beat any style, any opponent. So I rate him high despite his cherry-picking, just like I rate Guzman high...and he's never fought anyone in the top 15 p4p yet.

So nothing to do with "hating"...and nothing to do with what I think of Calzaghe as a person! Why cannot you get that through your head?:huh

I cannot rate Calzaghe even higher than I currently am for losing 3 rounds against Hopkins whom I rate quite a bit lower than Kessler whom he lost 4 rounds to. Why cannot you see that?:huh

So he needs to lacy Hopkins to climb even higher. Higher than 3/4...that leaves 1/2/3...depending on how dominant other top 5 p4p JMM and Pacman do against each other...and PBF...whom, like Guzman, I give the benefit of the doubt to...even though he ain't fighting Cotto...as he should.

I am not being unreasonable here, mate. And "my **** ain't backwards" at all - it makes sense.

You think PBF is now a worse fighter than Calzaghe...I don't. I am sorry, but I don't. Don't think there's a massive difference between them, but I think PBF has the edge for now. If Calzaghe beats Dawson after Dawson proves his chin, I put Calzaghe p4p No.1...so why am I hating him???

You underrate me badly if you give me so little credit for being able to put my personal preferences, whatever they might be, over what my common sense suggests...and you should know me A LOT better than to do that, by now.

I might be wrong and Calzaghe might be a better boxer than PBF is...I concede that is possible; after all, I am far, far from being an expert...but to suggest that I am hating on Calzaghe and underrating him as a result is, as I said to you before: wrong, mean, and unfair to the n-th degree.

That you would start a pathetic hate campaign against Bute in some kind of weird attempt at retaliation is strange and sick...I'm sorry, mate...we're mates so I'm honest with you, but you are out of line, big time! BIG TIME! Hope you realise that before it's too late.:good

 

That's the thing. We'll never know how good Calzaghe actually is because he has always avoided the really big fights. Puttikng him P4P top 3 is just based on guessing how good he is based on the fact that he hasn't lost.

His fans will naturally read a lot more into his undefeated record than others.

 

Well...really big fights...he sure made a really big fight against Kessler, I think...and on the basis of that amazing performance, he has climbed to a career best p4p ranking in my book...

I wouldn't say you have to guess how good Calzaghe is...you can SEE he is amazing, if you look closely, especially if you see him against tricky opponents like Bika, when he fights according to their rules...it's sometimes in these lesser fights that you can truly find out about how great a fighter is...To me, personally, the Bika fight made me think more of Calzaghe, strangely enough, than the Lacy fight did. It sounds crazy, but it's true.

 

Calzaghe fans call his performance against Kessler amazing etc but it wasn't. The Lacy fight, yeah that was a great performance. The Kessler fight was a very close fight which Calzaghe won. Kessler was probably P4P 20ish if that high.

 

pretty unnecessary IMO

 

Kessler was 18ish p4p in my book, before the fight.

I was at the fight in Cardiff and then I rewatched the fight closely many times and what Calzaghe did that night was amazing...much better that what he did against Lacy, who was made to order. Kessler made it tough for Calzaghe to look good but Calzaghe himself agreed it was a much better performance than the Lacy performance. It is the performance that he himself views as the best of his life - and he is right, IMO. It was the performance that gave him the kind of confidence that no other performance has ever done before. He never thought himself he could be as good as he was against Kessler. Whatever Enzo might be saying, it was the performance that defined Calzaghe's legacy like no other before...and he almost didn't take the fight in the first place.

After this performance, Kessler climbed to p4p 11/12 for me...because he was better than he'd ever been before...although he couldn't change his gameplan to counteract whatever new stuff Calzaghe was throwing at him, and Calzaghe climbed from a p4p 6/7 p4p position to 3/4 p4p, in my book. My opinion.:good

 

He has yet to fight a real Welterweight for a good reason, he's declined and it's very evident. Ask around to your favourite analysts here, his style, speed and general boxing has declined into a safety first style that is very limited within the elite scene at 147 and over.

PBF cannot change his style like Calzaghe can at this point, or hell, he can't even do it like Mijares can. PBF is currently STUCK in a defensive, pot shotting style that is ripe to be raped by a skilled pressure fighter and it's not going to change. And even when he had the multi-dimensionality, switching stylistic approaches in with a B level Judah and a B+ level Castillo are quite different than switching styles mid-fight against an A level Kessler when your are past your prime.:yep

PBF is just starting to decline, Calzaghe is clearly declined and Calzaghe is still better than this current version of Mayweather.

It has totally to do with hating because you have switched sides completely after that thread by pride of wales.

Hopkins is going to get obliterated and stopped and Pac's about to get his ass handed to him by JMM, then PBF is doing NOTHING this year except fighting DLH. Yet, you want to talk about P4P?

After these results, the only fair P4P would be Calzaghe/JMM/Pac depending on how they win as the 1 and 2 P4P. If JMM outclasses him, he is the #1 P4P no matter what Calzaghe does.

Higher than 3/4? There is no legitimate way on your P4P scale to have him lower than 3 because your scale is not based on 'big name resume', it's based on how good they are for their division and on THAT scale, Guzman even ranks over JMM.

Since Guzman has horrible stamina, it makes him vulnerable despite being more skilled than both Mijares and Calzaghe respectively, therefore the highest Guzzy can be ranked is 4-6 and can only go up if he proves that his stamina will not prevent him from being victorious against the others.

But back to topic, if JMM is not even the 'bestttt' in his division, how can he be ranked over the greatest ever at SMW, having just knocked off a fighter of JMM level in Mikkel Kessler and becoming the undisputed champion.

You aren't even thinking clearly, unless your P4P criteria has to do with 'resume', in which then I wouldn't even be picking at this.

It makes perfect sense, you are biased against Calzaghe.

I'll explain, because for you to put Calzaghe as the No. 1 P4P, he has to achieve things that the others that are ranking highly in your list(and criteria) don't have to do. All PBF has to do to keep his claim is drop 2-3 rounds to Hatton, struggle to adjust and then KO him late and of course win a split decision over a past it DLH.

Calzaghe is either the 2nd or 3rd best of this post-Roy Jones generation as it stands, an obliteration of Hopkins and a victory over Dawson jumps him way over the rest, it's not even comparable.

You are hating him because nothing he can do is good enough as it is for the others because of your wrongful judging of him as a person.

I am not underrating anything, you have switched sides as soon as you got some ammunition against Calzaghe. You switched to the side that last year everyone on THIS side battled against as it was bad for boxing and unfair to real elite's.

Personal preferrances should not come into rating fighters in an unbiased fashion.

Not prime/prime, but now, yes.

It's not unfair at all, everyone has seen it and has mentioned it when your screename comes up that you have jumped bandwagon's.

**** Bute. He'll be gone as an afterthought in a years time if he's matched with anybody worth a damn.

I am not out of line, you jumped bandwagon's and have **** on my favourite fighter I am pointing it out, it's effecting your overall analysation skills as a result and YOU want to talk about P4P on top of it. The campaign against Bute is in joking fashion to begin with, just like the Taylor campaign has always been.:nono

 

I have a problem with this. I've seen it so much since Calzaghe-Kessler.

Before the fight Calzaghe himself said that Kessler was just another Lacy and his fans argued that Kessler was not that good. Then after Kessler, despite having a bad hand and missing out on a week of sparring, made it a close fight and hurt Calzaghe a few times they said he must actually be really good. I don't have a problem so far. The problem comes when you then go on to say Calzaghe destroyed Kessler who is really good so Calzaghe must be P4P whatever. It's circular reasoning.

Kessler gave Calzaghe a close fight => Kessler is really good
Calzaghe destroyed Kessler who is really good => Calzaghe is great

 

wright - maybe
marquez - maybe
mosley - no
de la hoya - no
munoz - hell no lost twice to martin castillo(who lost to the novice nobuo nashiro and montiel tko 4)

 

cotto would drop out of the top ten if he was dominated by mayweather the way hatton was.

 

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Calzaghe never said Kessler was another Lacy at all! Where did you get that from? In an interview just before Kessler, he was saying how Lacy was made to order and how it meant nothing at all, but how Kessler he would have to be at his very best for. He said the same after the fight. Calzaghe fans went overboard criticising Kessler but that was because so man Kessler fans thought Kessler was obviously going to win it. I called Calzaghe UD 116-112 and guess what the score turned out to be. I held Kessler in very high regard before the fight and was impressed with him even more after the fight. But I never thought he would beat Calzaghe...didn't think Calzaghe would be as good as he was on the night either, mind you.

About the circular reasoning...true...it is circular reasoning, but there's no way of getting away from that, I am afraid. This is why you can perform better whilst looking worse - compare Calzaghe against Lacy with Calzaghe against Kessler. To me, there's no doubt in hell Calzaghe was better against Kessler, even though he looked worse. Performance-wise...what he did was much superior against Kessler...

Anyway, even assuming Calzaghe and Kessler didn't go up p4p after that fight...what was your rating for them prior to that fight? Couldn't have been less than Calzaghe p4p 5/6 and Kessler p4p 20.

 

Damn, I'm a great wind up artist. Sorry mate.

 

That's the spirit!:thumbsup

To recap:

How would Bute do against: Froch, Inkin and Lacy?