Very good or great? Volume 1: Ken Norton

This post says it all for me .:good

 

I dont see Norton being champion in MANY eras imo.

Not sure I rank him "Great" so to speak.


Could he have rule in the 20's with Dempsey and Tunney and Greb??

I give him a shot in the EARLY 30's of holding the title, but once Louis hits the scene, I give him little change, Thinking it over, I think Baer may spark him.

The 40's had Louis of couse.

Could Norton have gotting by the Rock in the 50's?? I know some posters give Norton a good shot, but my personal, I give him as much chance, As Norton did vs Cooney imo. I cant see Kenny beating Marciano. I think once Marciano retires, he might grab it from Patterson, or perhaps Ingo, but thsos are about 50 50 fights right there.

The 60's had Liston, and no I wont give Norton much chance there, and perhaps he can out swarm a prime Ali, perhaps, he might have grab the title for a brief movement, before Ali regains it.

We know what happen in the 70's.

The 80's. Almost got by a green Holmes, but could he deal with the PRIME Holmes? Or even more scary Tyson.

90's ok he can grab one of the alpha titles, but again, Tyson, Lewis, Holyfiled maybe?? Would he be the "Man". I dont think so.

The 2000 had Lewis, and I dont see him beating the Kilts either. Again with all these titles, he can grab a belt, but he wont be the man so to speak.

 

he was a step below the all time greats.

hall of fame is so watered down that of course he deserves it, if the criteria wasn't so flimsy then lets debate.

 

I'd definitely include him in the bottom half of a Top 20 all time heavyweight list.

 

Yes I go along with that also. He was world class during a strong era but great wins aside he was never the dominant heavyweight of his own era. sure it was a great time but ali flatters Norton and norton flatters foreman.

A lot of ATG's had close fights with top class contenders but for the most part those guys remain "top class contenders". This aplys to kenny. big strong effective ALWAYS GOOD VALUE but not an ATG.

 

He was the kind of a fighter who looked like he had an iron chin against fast, accurate boxers like Ali and Holmes but froze completely against big punchers like Foreman and Shavers. He was somewhat one-dimensional as he was only truly very good at pressing forward. While backing up he often went against the ropes which was his downfall against power punchers. Very good but not great in my opinion. Did well for a fighter who started his career late but he had the athleticism and dedication to be successful.

 

on paper the guy who gives the GOAT a hard fight gives all great fighters hell. with hindsight however knowing how his career panned out with the opertunites he had I would find it difficult to exclude most linear champs to find a spot for kenny in the top 20. It would be like rating arturo godoy, jim johnson, philedelphia jack o'brien, carl the truth wiliams and johny risko within the top 20 heavyweights just because they also pushed ATG's prety close. but thats just my opinion. kenny was a real handfull.

 

:good

 

I think Ken Norton was a great heavyweight fighter. I believe he would be at least a contender in all eras.

 

Norton was very good, borderline great IMO. **** it, I'll call him great... just not as great as some others.

He went 1-3 vs. Ali and Holmes but he could have just as easily went 4-0. I felt he beat Ali in their 3rd fight and the fight with Holmes could have went either way without too much controversy. The 2nd fight with Ali was also very close but Ali deserved the win IMO. Norton wasn't dominated in any of these fights!

He was stopped in 2 rounds by Foreman. Yep, so was Frazier. Frazier was stopped in 5 when he fought Foreman again. Norton may have been able to last longer with Foreman had they fought again... would it have meant anything? Foreman was better, so what? Foreman was better than a lot of fighters.

He looked good in his wins vs.

Jack O'Halloran W10
Herschel Jacobs W10
Henry Clark KO9
Muhammad Ali WSD12 (close fight)
Boone Kirkman KO7
Jerry Quarry KO5
Jose L. Garcia KO5
Pedro O. Lovell KO5
Ron Stander KO5
Larry Middleton KO10
Duane Bobick KO1
Lorenzo Zanon KO5
Jimmy Young WSD15 (Norton had started to look past prime)
Randy Stephens KO3
Tex Cobb WSD10 (it was clear Norton was well past prime)

The losses-

LKOby8 Jose L. Garcia 1970- Norton down twice. Norton was the favorite and took Garcia lightly, he paid for it. He was fighting close to home and thought he would impress his fans by stopping Garcia easily. He did avenge the loss by stopping Garcia in the 5th round five years later.

LSD12 Ali 1973- Norton won the first fight which was 6 months prior. This fight was close but Ali got the decision.

LKOby2 Foreman 1973- No shame, Foreman stopped Frazier in 2 as well.

L15 Ali 1976- This was for the HW World title. Most feel that Norton was robbed.

LSD15 Holmes 1978- Great fight, close fight, Holmes got the decision vs. the almost 35 year old Norton. Norton's last hurrah IMO.

Norton went on but never looked great again-

KO3 Randy Stephens 1978- A dominate win but Stephens was far from great

LKOby1 Ernie Shavers 1979- Norton was well past prime

D10 Scott LeDoux 1979- Norton down twice in the 10th round. A prime Norton would have had an easy time with LeDoux

WSD10 Randall Cobb 1980- Norton struggled vs. a guy he would have been able to beat easily a few years prior

LKOby1 Gerry Cooney 1981- Norton's last fight, he was clearly washed up

 

It really sucks he went 0-3 in HW World title fights despite being a WBC HW World Champ. Just imagine that he went 4-0 vs. Ali and Holmes though. That means he would have won the HW title in '76.

After Ali he beat Bobick and Zanon in '77. He beat Young in '78. Young had drew with Shavers in '74, beat Lyle in '75, got robbed vs. Ali in '76, beat Lyle again in '76, and beat Foreman in '77. The Young win was a good win.

Norton wouldn't have had to defend against Foreman because Foreman lost to Young in March of 1977. Norton fought Ali in September of 1976 and didn't fight again until May of 1977. Foreman could have been avoided... making the win over Young even more meaningful.

Add a win over Holmes and things look much different... 5 World Title fight wins for starters. Also, L. Spinks probably never becomes champ.

 

His win over Jimmy Young is often overlooked. Young was coming off big wins over Foreman and Lyle, and this fight was a WBC title eliminator.

 

The fight was a eliminator AFTER the fact the fight was done and said with.

Spinks gave Ali a rematch, and the WBC awarded Norton the title, base on the Young win, which was all ready over a few months early.

 

These are bad comparisons, IMO.

For one thing, Norton didn't just "push an ATG pretty close". He actually defeated Ali.

Second, he didn't have just ONE close or controversial fight with an ATG (like Godoy or Williams). Norton fought Ali THREE times, and could have gotten the decision all of those times. Toss in his fight with Holmes, and that's FOUR fights with two of the very best heavyweights in history in which Norton could have gotten the decision.

Norton didn't just have one good day against an off-of-his-game ATG. He proved through several fights that he was on a certain level.

 

I rate Ken a few notches above Godoy,Risko et al.