Video - Vasyl Lomachenko - The new P4P King?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Dec 11, 2017.


  1. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    How much do you think Rigo has lost due to age? He still looked pretty quick to me. I honestly think the biggest factor against Rigo is maybe the fact that there's not all that much footage of Lomachenko as compared to himself. Loma seemed as though he'd crafted a perfect gameplan t deal with Rigo and that when Rigondeux' usual approach fell apart, he and his team had nothing to fall back on.
     
  2. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    The size was way more big of a deal then age. But I told CST before the fight many times that I'd favor Loma at this point of their career over Rigo if they were the same size. You said earlier that Loma didn't use size to win the fight. Sorry but that's a ridiculous statement. Kirk, IB, and others who have been following boxing agree with my opinion, you should read up on some of their posts. Basically there are subtle things that make a big difference. I can name you some but I'd rather get at one argument at a time. So we can go there if you want after this.
     
  3. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    Oh btw to clarify. Just because I told CST pre-fight I'd pick Loma to beat Rigo at the same size at this point doesn't mean Loma gets that credit. It's kind of like how I think Mayweather would have toyed with Marquez if they were the same size. Both beat guys moving up 2 weight classes so that's how we should be evaluating the wins.
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    Nah have at it. Seemed to me as though Loma's ridiculous speed was the deciding factor, but I'm not going to deny that the extra size wasn't a help in the clinches etc.
     
  5. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    Ok would you prefer that I state all of my opinions at once or that we go point by point? Personally I think it's more productive to go point by point if we're trying to have a meaningful educational debate. I feel like the biggest issues on forums is people will bring like 10 points at a time, the other person will respond with 10 new points and the debate goes nowhere.
     
  6. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    What I meant was have the other discussion first. I agree that it's painful to try debate 2 guys at once and get the points mixed. Also, I'm eating a salad and typing one handed ;)
     
  7. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    Ok well my opinion is age did play a factor but not as much as the size. Boxers below 130 do not age well. The history of boxing back this up. Now Rigo could be the exception but the issue is he's been extremely inactive and has not fought a top talent since Donaire which was 4 years ago. As for you saying he looked fast. It's hard to judge how much slower a fighter has gotten because milliseconds make a big difference.
     
  8. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I wonder if Rigo will retire now. Some fighters, when they get their bubble popped, collapse mentally. If he goes on we may have the answer as to his decline or lack thereof in his next bouts.
     
  9. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    Well I don't think he's completely shot. But I don't think he was close to the fighter he was 4 years ago especially since he was getting in the proper work in the ring. I also don't think he was in his "prime" when he fought Donaire. He was just that damn good.

    As for an answer. Unless there's a top donaire like talent in 122(there's not), I think it would be hard for us to get an answer from a future fight. Also if he gets stopped next it doesn't necessarily mean he's shot it could mean he lost interest post Loma.
     
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  10. TheyDontBoxNoMore7

    TheyDontBoxNoMore7 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    No I actually have you beat in every avenue. Pretty bigbresponse for being so busy online shopping and all. You read it clown.
     
  11. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    Fair enough. I've never really been a Rigo fan but he does what he does extremely well. I think between the age, weight and the fact that Loma is crazy good, he's reached his ceiling. He should stay in the lower classes. I still think it was a pretty good win for Loma; now I want to see him against some big guns his own size.
     
  12. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    This is pretty much peak Rigo to me. Now obviously Amateur/Pro boxing is different. But comparing this to his fight against Drian Francisco in 2015 he's a different fighter. He didn't have the same motor in that fight and his legs were definitely more shot. Also I think there's a noticeable difference in speed. Do you agree or do you think that it's not a noticeable difference? By the way I'm not asking this as like a trap so I can start screaming like others on this forum saying "ARE YOU ******ED HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE HE WAS WAY SLOWER", just generally curious on what another pair of eyes sees.
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    But yeah, I agree he should have stayed in 122 but the issue is no one wanted to fight him. As much as I want to rag on Rigo for basically cashing out the man had to make money somehow. And this was probably his best option.
     
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  13. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    No Mas Chenko's opponent's win/loss ratio

    308-27

    And 12 of those loses belong to Salido. He turned pro very young and was 14-8-2 in his first 24 fights because he had no amateur career to speak of and was learning his trade on the job. When he'd completed his apprenticeship and learned his trade he improved immeasurably and he would only lose 4 fights in the next 12 years

    Crawford's opponent's win loss ratio

    514-205

    Number of world champions fought

    Loma = 5

    Crawford = 4

    Number of times Loma has fought on the road = 11

    Crawford = 1

    And if you don't think that matters, do you think Salido would've beaten Loma in Ukraine? Of course he wouldn't have he would've been rightfully DQ'd or at the very least had multiple points deducted from his total and thus lost. Loma actually out landed him by 20 punches, but at least 30-40 of Salido's punches were South of the border, many of which so low Ray Charles could've seen them on a dark night from a mile away. Salido would not have been allowed to get away with in Loma's backyard or indeed many other neutral locations.

    World champions beaten

    In no order

    Loma

    GRJ
    Walters
    Rigoblin
    Martinez
    Sosa

    Crawford

    Postol
    Burns
    Indongo
    Gamboa

    GRJ>>Postol
    Walters>>Indongo
    Burns>>Martinez
    Rigoblin>>Gamboa

    And we still have Sosa

    Crawford's best win Postol just got dropped heavily by some obscure prospect from Uzbekistan in his last fight. His opponent was so obscure that even Serge has never heard of him before. And Postol was on very wobbly legs when he hauled his ass back up off the canvas and was very lucky to make it out of the round. He came within a whisker of getting KTFO by a 14 fight novice who'd feasted on nothing but a bunch of tomato cans with records like this. Let that sink in.

    14-11-0
    14-10-0
    0-1-0
    3-12-0
    0-0-0
    6-9-0
    6-4-0
    3-6-0
    7-6-2
    0-0-0
    0-1-0
    0-0-0
    0-0-0
    0-4-0

    That's Crawford's best win. And Postol's only claim to fame is a freak eye injury stoppage over a shot, battle weary, mentally demoralized ''hype job'' Lucas. And Postol held like a gay octopus for much of that fight too.

    Postol nearly getting KTFO by obscure bum. Time stamped

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    As for Indongo, I think it's very likely he's packing Namibian glass. Go look at the amount of featherfists and non punchers he'd fought before he ran into Crawford. Yes Troyanovsky hits like a truck but he didn't land a punch when he fought him.

    His 1st (and 2nd) = 15 fights (1KOs)
    3rd = 7 fights (1KOs)
    4th = 1 fight (0KOs)
    5th (and 8th) = 26 fights (2KOs)
    6th = 8 fights (0KOs)
    8th = 30 fights (3KOs)
    9th = 12 fights (0KOs)
    10th = 38 fights (8KOs)
    11th = 36 fights (19KOs)
    12th = 6 fights (0KOs)
    13th = 10 fights (3KOs)
    14th = 3 fights (0KOs)
    15th = 16 fights (3KOs)
    16th = 44 fights (16KOs)
    17th = 24 fights (9KOs)
    18th = 30 fights (13KOs)
    19th = 42 fights (15KOs)
    20th = 32 fights (15KOs)
    21st = 27 fights (23 KOs) Glass jaw Troyanovsky didn't land a punch
    22nd = 48 fights (14KOs) Burns

    Troyanovsky aside, this must be some kind of record for the amount of featherfists and non punchers a fighter has faced. If you gave them all sledgehammers it would probably take them at least a month to demolish a Wendy house between them. If I had a son who was that weak and feeble I would disown them.

    Now let's get into one of Crawford's other best wins ie. Ricky Burns

    Let's not forget that Burns' fight prior to facing Crawford he should've lost to Beltran and in his fight prior to that he was getting schooled by Jose A Gonzalez and looked well on his way to losing before Gonzalez had to pull out with a wrist injury. Gonzalez was ahead 87-84 on all three of the judge's score cards. And in his fight after losing to Crawford, Burns lost to Zlaticanin. So if not for good fortune and corruption Burns very easily could've been on a 0-4 slump at that time.

    A fight report of Burns vs Gonzalez

    'For most of the nine rounds that their fight lasted, lightweight titleholder Ricky Burns was utterly outclassed by the largely unknown Jose Gonzalez. It was a shocking scene to see Gonzalez, who was the mandatory challenger for reasons that will remain a mystery -- because it sure had nothing to do with his barren résumé -- toying with Burns.

    Gonzalez, who had never fought anyone of remote consequence and was fighting outside of his Puerto Rican home for the first time, had traveled to the lion's den of Glasgow, Scotland, where Burns is a hero, and he took the hero to school Saturday at Emirates Arena.

    Burns' title was clearly slipping away -- just listen to the crowd grow quieter and quieter, round after round -- when, suddenly, Gonzalez simply quit on his stool after the ninth round.

    The British television commentators, who also had Burns way behind, said it might have been a hand injury. Whatever it was, that's the sort of pain you sign up for when you become a prizefighter. If you want to be a champion, it goes with the territory. Gonzalez (22-1, 17 KOs) couldn't take it, did not have what it takes to be a champion and quit. Poof. Just like that, he gave up the opportunity of a lifetime to win a world title.

    But for most of the nine rounds, Gonzalez befuddled an ineffective Burns (36-2, 11 KOs), who was as lucky to keep his title (in his third defense) as anyone is to hit the lottery. This fight wasn't so much about Burns winning it as it was about Gonzalez losing.

    Burns, the heavy favorite, showed very little and had me thinking he should be thankful he (and former promoter Frank Warren) turned down multiple overtures from fellow titleholder Adrien Broner. I always thought Broner would manhandle Burns. After seeing Burns against Gonzalez, I'm sure of it.

    By the third round, Burns was bleeding from the nose. He was being easily beaten to the punch as Gonzalez showed a really nice variety of punches -- uppercuts, body shots and right hands. He didn't even really use his best punch, the left hook, much.

    Gonzalez had big fifth and sixth rounds, backing Burns into the ropes and hurting him with repeated blows. At this point in the fight, it seemed not really a matter of whether Gonzalez would stop him, just when. But I will give Burns a bit of credit here. He is experienced and has heart and obviously knew he was trailing. He let it all hang out in the seventh round, which will go down as a round of the year candidate.

    They went toe to toe. They were both hurt and they were both in trouble at different times. It was a blistering round, and it clearly took more out of Gonzalez than Burns.

    "He caught me with a few good shots, and I just decided to stand my ground and trade back with him. That's all I could do," Burns said after the fight about Round 7.

    Burns mounted a comeback in the eighth and ninth rounds, his best of the fight, as Gonzalez, perhaps his hand already hurt, looked dead tired and did not do very much. Still, Burns was in a deep hole when the ninth ended. And then, out of nowhere, Gonzalez quit, giving Burns the improbable victory.

    Eddie Hearn, the Matchroom Sport promoter who signed Burns before this fight after he dumped Warren, seemed relieved Burns had pulled this victory out of the fire.

    "Unbelievable courage," he said of Burns' ability to hang in there despite a very tough night.

    Then Hearn said they would be back in Scotland for Burns' next title defense in September -- a title he is very, very lucky to still call his own.'

    And many feel Burns lost against Kiryl Relikh in his fight directly before Indongo relieved him of his title too.

    Going into the Crawford fight Postol had been out of action for 10 months

    So we discredit Loma's win over Axe Man because the later had been inactive for 11 months but not Crawfords' over Postol who'd been inactive for 10 months or his win over Gamboa (which I don't recall the Crawford groupies who also happen to be Loma detractors mentioning either) who'd been inactive for 12 months?
     
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  14. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    And last but not least, Crawford is a huge weight bully who has typically been rehydrating 15-18 pounds for his fights at 135 AND even up at 140.

    Terence Crawford vs Andrey Klimov - contested at Lightweight

    Crawford 149 - Klimov 140

    Terence Crawford vs Yuriorkis Gamboa - contested at Lightweight

    Crawford 152 - Gamboa 145

    Terence Crawford vs Raymundo Beltran - contested at Lightweight

    Crawford 153 - Beltran 147

    Terence Crawford vs Hank Lundy - contested at Light-welterweight

    Crawford 155 - Lundy 151

    Crawford 155 - Jean 155 - contested at Light-welterweight

    Crawford 157 - Postol 152 - contested at Light-welterweight

    Crawford 157 - Diaz 161 - contested at Light-welterweight

    So as you can see Crawford has been the heavier man on fight night for all bar 2 of his fights (I think Molina might have been heavier so maybe 3) where his ring weights have been announced (and often by a significant amount) and in that one instance where he wasn't his opponent weighed the same as him *this post was written before Bud's last fight and I don't know what his ring weight was for that one - I'll update it later*

    Like I said Crawford was absolutely killing himself to make 135. So much so that it was pretty much the main theme for his HBO 2 Days special

    Crawford rehydrates 15-18lbs on fight night. He rehydrated 17lbs for Postol even though he'd only officially moved up to 140 the year before. Crawford actually weighed more for his lowest recorded fight night weight at lightweight than career light-welter Postol did for his fights against Aydin and Matthysse. Crawford was 149 and Postol was 148 for those two fights.

    Loma 139 - Sosa 142

    https://s11.postimg.org/lvyikw0ib/loma_sosa.png

    Loma 137 - Walters 136

    https://s11.postimg.org/h7i35h283/loma_vs_walters.png

    Loma 137 - Martinez 144

    http://i.imgur.com/Tc49cRs.jpg

    At 126

    Loma 134 - Koasicha 133

    https://postimg.org/image/uvsczfadh/

    Loma 138 - Rodriguez 132

    https://postimg.org/image/jtfb8z57r/

    Loma 138½ - Russell 138

    http://i.imgur.com/jL3x79B.jpg

    Loma 136 - Salido 147

    http://i.imgur.com/O4IjhiD.jpg

    Loma 132 - Piriyapinyo 137

    https://s10.postimg.org/wgr66qr2x/loma_piri.png

    Loma 129 - Ramirez 135

    The maximum amount of weight Loma has hydrated since moving up to 130 is 9lbs, but it's only been 7lbs for 2 of his 5 fights up there, and the weight for 2 of the others wasn't announced, conversely, Crawford is still rehydrating 17lbs up at 140. So think about that one before you crucify Loma for picking on little Rigoblin. And also think about the fact that it was Rigoblin who called Loma out not the other way round. In fact, he waged a protracted Twitter campaign at him constantly accusing him of ducking him and the good old LDBC (most of whom said Rigo was going to knock Loma the F out) aided him in that campaign by tearing into Loma at every chance they could accusing him of ducking Rigoblin. They went in on Loma like a pack of wild animals for months and months, if not longer, saying he was running scared from Rigoblin. So Loma couldn't win no matter what he did.



    Serge destroys

    /thread
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  15. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Like I said, a couple of the stats need updating, because they are old posts - I've just woken up and I'm still half asleep and feeling very groggy so I'll do it later.

    PS. Great post Serge
     
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