Vitali Klitschko vs. Frank Bruno

They were indeed dominated... Because they weren't there to win, for the most part. After all, Bruno barely lost a round against the fodder than Warren and Duff used to feed him.

McCall, Cummings and Coetzer. All arguably harder one-punch hitters than Vitali.

And Bruno gave good accounts of himself against better opponents (Witherspoon, Tyson and a much better version of Lewis).

Quicker hands yes, but not as much as you'd think. The early 1990s Bruno was much faster than the version who fought in the 1980s; he was able to beat a physically peaking Lewis to the punch, for instance.

His best punches were, but the only round he won (the 1rst) was when he had the most sustained attacks. His best moments in the fight were when he pushed Vitali onto the back foot.

Byrd is overrated in footspeed, and took that fight on a few days notice (which is why he looked so podgy).

Ah, but in the context we're talking about (footspeed) Lewis in 1993 was miles ahead of either Byrd or himself 10 years later.

(Sorry, mixed you up with Mendoza there)

At least you admit it is physically possible for Vitali to be behind on the cards. It used to take me as many as three pages of debate before I could convince Dr. Z of that fact!

To me, Vitali's power (which decent) did not reflect his punching power. I'd compare him to Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier or Muhammad Ali in this respect: he was an accumulation puncher. Against boxers with questionable chins (Sanders, Williams etc.) he only scored standing stoppages after round after round of landing frequently. That's not the kind of knockout artist I feel Bruno has much to fear from.

However, I can understand that someone who didn't spend his early childhood cheering Bruno on might have a different perspective. :good

Well, the debates could go on and on about that fight, but the fact is that McCall held his hands down and invited Lewis to hit him repeatedly: he did just the opposite against Bruno.

Bruno had Tyson holding on... When he connected! Bruno basically landed two good punches to the head in that entire fight (both left hooks); when he connected, Tyson's legs stiffened and he stopped punching. It wasn't until Lewis had more or less turned Tyson's face into a mud pie with strawberries that Tyson quit, and even then he was fighting back right into the last few seconds.

Exactly: a 100% trend! Lewis was the only opponent who consistently took the fight to Vitali, and that was the only time where Vitali looked like a dying asthmatic by the end of the fight.

He had 21 fights, but had fought no-one of Bonecrusher's level. The same goes for Witherspoon. He was also overtrained in the 1980s (he talks about this in his autobiography); when he was heavier in the later 1990s, he was actually able to sustain better workrates. I'm not convinced that, had Lewis not short-circuited him, Bruno would have tired in their fight enough for a stamina stoppage.

Bruno was like Foreman in that he was a monstrously slow developer. It wasn't until the early 1990s that he was throwing triple-jabs, putting combinations together, fighting rhythmically rather than sporadically, throwing the left hook with power, and relaxed enough to not tire too early.

 

Johnson didn't look to me like he was there to win. All his other key opponents (Hide, Lewis, Sanders, Byrd, Donald and Williams) were definitly there to win. Sanders and Williams received vicious beatings but kept trying.

I don't really know if McCall should be listed as a "war", as like you said, he went into a shell most of the time. Cummings came very close to stopping Bruno and was pretty much a journeyman to begin with. Coetzer had fought a few times in a 3 years period (and wouldn't for the next 6 years) and i would hardly call a first round knockout a war, although i have not seen that fight (just the KO).
Given the stature of those opponents, i could just as easily say "they were not there to win" - McCall went into a shell, Coetzee was semi-retired and overweight, and Cumbings didn't do much except for arguably beating Frazier.

Agreed here, although Klitschko didn't fight a Witherspoon or a Smith.

Nope. Sorry to be a hardass here, but i really saw Sanders having most succes when landing those hard, quick counters after leading Vitali into a trap.

Yes but the "took the fight on a few days notice" goes both ways.

Klitschko prepared for Ruddock, a big, hard punching fighter. Instead he got a smaller, slick southpaw. I don't think you will find a more opposite fight stylistically speaking than that.
Byrd may be overrated in footspeed, but i still think he's faster than a forward shuffling Bruno.

That's true. It's too bad Lewis' physical traits were leaving him when he was reaching his peak as a fighter later on.

Well we're at page 3 right now so..

Alright.

Yes, but he was also looking for a way out, so he must have thought something about his power. To Bruno's credit though, i think McCall said later that he didn't want to go the full 12 like he did against Bruno.

Alright.

Yeah, well i'll take the trend of losing ONE close fight on cuts over Bruno's entire career-extending trend to lack the durability to finish big fights.

There may be some truth in this, but that doesn't change that there's always a big chance that Bruno does that deer-in-the-headlights-freeze when he gets hit by a hard puncher. I realize that Vitali isn't a one-punch fighter but he can definitly wear you down with his size, speed and workrate.

 

Why not? Is he stupid?

 

Bruno was a decent fighter ,but largely a manufactured one,his problem was that when he got tagged he froze ,and became an easy target to finish off.He was also an " on top fighter",the only time he came back from being hurt was against Jumbo Cummings ,and that was because he got tagged just as the bell rang.Vitaly had comparable power ,and a far better chin Klitschko by mid to late rounds stoppage.

 

Yep Bruno hit harder than Tyson and Foreman on a machine. Tyson was better at landing his power shots, threw better combinations, better defensively etc.

Bruno had true 1 punch power

 

a bit of an exageration but that man could bang he was a destructive puncher no doubt. maybe more of a clubbing smack to the side of the head was enuogh to make you go face first.

 

1. Johnson/Sanders/Williams were all about 30-50lbs overweight - thats not really 'being there to win'. I'm sure they tried in the ring but they didnt try in training camp. None of those achieved before or after Vitali.

Vitali quit against Byrd but he did fight well - Bruno would surely beat Byrd though. Golota/McCline both really beat Byrd and they arent in Brunos league.

2. No Bruno disposed of them quickly and they are as good as Williams/Johnson

3. McCall was coming off beating Lennox and Larry Holmes, the only reason he went into a shell was because he took some frightening power shots.

4. Vitali is lacking contenders for the main part. He was dominant at Euro level, dominant against fringe contenders, but came up short in his big fights.

BRUNO AND VITALI HAVE 3 THINGS IN COMMON AND THAT IS

a. LOSING THEIR BIG FIGHTS THEY WERE WINNING
b. PUSHING ATGs HARD BUT LOSING
c. DESTROYING FRINGE CONTENDERS

5. Sanders had plenty of success early BUT Sanders was a fat 3 round fighter. If Sanders could maintain what he did for the first 2-3rounds for the rest of the fight he would have won

6. Vitali was in training for a fight but Byrd was not. Byrd isnt that good anyway, hes a small natural light heavyweight with zero pop. Bruno and Vitali were inherently better

7. Byrd is faster than Bruno but hes also faster than Vitali. Byrd can't land his shots faster than Bruno can land his jab because of the reach difference.

8. Well Vitali took forever to step up where as Bruno stepped before he had enough learning fights. So his losses to Smith/Witherspoon would have probably goen the other way in his prime. Prime Lewis and prime Tyson would have eaten Vitali up too.

Vitali lost twice not one. Why did he lose to Byrd - durability and stamina. Even if he hurt his shoulder he could have thrown the other for 3 rounds if he wasnt punched out. The truth is Vitali is a bit of a front runner.

9. There is a chance of Bruno freezing and been taken out by Vitali, however he didnt really freeze so much against Tyson but rather get overwhelmed. Lewis just sparked him on his feet. Vitali isnt in the league of Lennox and Tyson powerwise

Theres also a chance of Bruno outjabbing Vitali

Theres also a chance of Brunos straight right being too much for Vitali (yes I know he took an old Lennox's shots this doesnt make him undestructable)

 

Yes they were overweight but they did try.

If you want to see someone who was not there to win, watch Douglas-Holyfield. Douglas was overweight AND didn't try to win. Williams, Sanders and Johnson took huge beatings and didn't quit.

Speculation. I thought Golota and McCline fell asleep in the latter stage of the fight and gave it away. The judges thought so too. At any rate, they were close fights.

Have you even seen the fights you are talking about?
McCall went the distance with Bruno holding on for dear life. "disposed of them quickly"? Cummings had Bruno all over the place hitting him at will just like Smith/Witherspoon did before stopping him. The only difference was that the bell rang, saving Bruno. Not exactly a quick disposal either.

So you agree with the other two points?

Sander, Williams and Johnson were big fights too and he dominated them. Not his fault that they came in overweight.

True. Vitali also destroyed some contenders as i pointed out earlier.

Yeah, and if Ali had Foreman's power, Frazier would've never won. But point is he didn't. Sanders never had much stamina, he gassed after 4 rounds against Rahman when having decked him twice. If McCall had more mental resiliance he would've beaten Bruno. You can make this argument all day long. Bottomline is they didn't.

What is your evidence that Byrd wasn't training for a fight ?

Byrd has a better resume than Bruno. And he left his training camp for Klitschko (Wladimir) at 204lbs and then ate himself up to 213lbs. If he was a natural lightheavyweight as you say, he would've left training camp at 175lbs and ate himself up to 213lbs. He bulked up a bit but does not carry 40lbs more than he should as you imply.

True.

Probably. I wouldn't be suprised if the post-prison Tyson gives in after he takes his best shot for 5 rounds like Holyfield did, though.
About Smith/Witherspoon going the other way had he had more experience, that's just more speculation. You say me bring the argument "well Vitali would've KO'd Lewis in the 7th anyway": because it is speculation. You base a lot of your arguments on "would've"'s.

He lost because of durability, not stamina (he didn't run out of gas). Based on this fight you could call him a front runner, but i think he redeemed himself in the Lewis fight.

Lewis has a higher knockout percentage than either of them and higher than Smith and Witherspoon as well. I know that his weak opposition helped that a bit, but it is still impressive that only one guy went the distance with him, usually there are at least some journeymen that manage to go the distance. Just like it is impressive that Bruno knocked all his early opponents out, even if they sucked.

There is a chance, yes. But i think Lewis will find enough shots to take advantage of Bruno's weak chin.

 

Bruno would have beaten Vitali. The Bruno that was outscoring Lennox, outjabbing Lennox - who was a more mobile target, with a better jab than Vitali - would have done the same to Vitali.

Klitschko's best chance is to go toe to toe and surround Bruno. Frank was flustered when a fighter was on top of him and once tagged rarely rallied.

He wasn't knocked down easy though and I htink Vitali's pedestrian hand-speed and low hands would have played into Bruno's hands, his jab was thudding, regular and long. Vitali would be pulling his head back in and out of range but Bruno would be bringing the right over.

I hated on Bruno for years, because he was over-hyped and over-loved. But he'd be a genuine threat in the heavyweight mix today. Fit, tall, brutal power and a thudding jab.

If he could hold it together for twelve he could outpoint Klitschko.

 

Although I like Bruno and think that he´s underrated, I have to pick Vitaly. He was 6´7 big, compared with his pysical strength, punching power and very good stamina it would be too much for Bruno, who lacked the stamina to survive the distance to win perhaps a decision (although I also favour Vitaly on points, because of the non stop-pressure he made), Bruno´s chin wasn´t that shaky like some say, so I think Vitaly stops him somewhere in the middlerounds...

 

1. Them taking 'huge beatings' and of quiting could indicate Vitali doesn't have that much 1 punch pop. Yes its sad Buster Douglas gave up after Tyson he could have been a great

2. I had McCline and Golota beating him and McCline has awful skill

3. Yep I was referring to Brunos KO wins against contenders/fring contenders lik Coetzee, Tillis, Bugner, Ribalta, Carl Williams, Coetzer, Ferguson. The impressive thing is he disposed of a few of these much quicker than the likes of Bowe and a few others

4. That Bruno hasnt been in wars? Tyson was a war in that he went down in the first, came back to hurt Tyson and then went on to take a disturbing beating

5. Vitali never faced the top guys in the division from 1999-2005- Ibeauchi (chose Byrd who'd just lost to Ike), Ruiz, Tua, Holyfield, Valuev, Rahman, Tyson, Golota, Wlad (excusable), Brewster, James Toney, Sam Peter, Byrd rematch - he didnt face any of them

6. No I know Sanders didnt win but it shows a weakness in Vitali. Plus Sanders was what 37? And semi-retired and 30lbs over fighting weight. If the Sanders who fought Rahman was there he would have made a better account of himself

7. Byrd does have a slightly better resume than Bruno but Byrd has a better resume than Vitali too

8. Well predicting fights is speculation is it not? I think Tyson circa 96 KOs Vitali but thats my opinion. I don't think a fighter with an open defense and arm punches keeps Tyson off them

9. The Byrd fight was bad - countless fighters finnish fights with the exact same injury

10 Are you mixing up Vitali with Lewis? Witherspoon and Smith were pretty good on their day

11. Brunos weak chin? misconception - Rewatch Tyson-Bruno 1 and tell me he has a weak chin

 

First the slightly off topic bit

I have little time for Bruno, he let me down too much, but what you wrote, is a throw away remark that is not true.

Bruno at the very least had a very good jaw/chin.

Look at how many clean right hands Bonecrusher had to land to get the job done.

(Apart from a nervous first 5 seconds against Tyson) Bomber Bruno stood up to five rounds of punishment against a 89 version of Tyson.

Did you see that clean literally measured right hand Lennox Lewis threw right at Bruno's jaw? And Frank was still on his feet!

Bruno's problem was he was a robot who had to be programmed, he lacked the natural ability that you need to get to the very, very top of boxing IMO. Bruno just did not know what to do when he got hit, and when you fight the very best, that will lead to defeat.

Nearer the end of his career, Francis (I suspect) managed to programme in the ability to cling on for dear life when hurt, and that 'skill' meant Bruno just about had enough to get past McCall.

Now for Bruno/Klitschko:

Bruno would out jab and out muscle Klitschko for three/four rounds, jolting Vitali more than once. But eventually (providing Vitali does not suffer cuts, which could be possible) Klitschko's jab would start to become the main factor in the fight; and by round eight, the match up would be even. By then Bruno would be in free fall as Vitali does pretty much as he wishes, leading to either a corner retirement or the ref diving in, late in the bout.

Klitschko TKO10

 

Chris Pontius.

Vitali Klitschko record is shallow for a supposed top line champion.