Vitali Klitschko's lineal claim and Chris Byrd issue according to The Ring

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MaccaveliMacc, Jan 31, 2026.


  1. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Vitali's claim as the lineal champion after his 2004 victory over Corrie Sanders is widely disputed based on the fact that Chris Byrd was considered number 2 in the division and held a win over him. We now have access to almost all of the issues of The Ring Magazine, so we can look straight into how they tackled this subject, justyfing the coronation.

    •Chris Byrd: This is a natural for two reasons. First, it would give Klitschko a chance to avenge his only loss to a still active fighter. And second, it would end any debate over who the real heavyweight champion is. Not that anyone recognizes beltholder Byrd as such, but many in the media won’t endorse Klitschko’s claim until he beats Byrd. Would those same people refuse to recognize Byrd as champ, even if he defeated Vitali again, until he avenges his loss to Wladimir? Of course not, and therein lies the hypocrisy of not supporting The Ring’s recognition of Klitschko-Sanders based on one four-year-old head-to-head result. To say you can’t have a heavyweight title fight without involving Byrd, a man who deserved to lose to Oquendo and drew with then-unranked Andrew Golota in his last two fights, is a serious stretch. Nevertheless, if Vitali-Byrd II could get everyone on the same page, it’s a fight worth making.

    What you guys think?
     
  2. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Number 1 v number 2 being a tradition earlier then this is not a thing. Convuluted tournaments and eliminators were how new lineages got established. 1>3 being for the lineal title being a scandal because number 2 wasn't involved just came out of the blue.

    I have a little theory or "hunch".

    At this time college football had a number 1 v number 2 based system called the "BCS". And this created lots of drama over who would get those spots. This drama often generated more interest then the games themselves. Specific to 2003 you had the number 3 team be considered the national champs by some people because 2 beat 1 and people had 3 ranked ahead of 2. So maybe this was a way to spark interest in who deserved to fight for the title by invoking a scenario sports fans had shown interest in. For what at the time was a struggling print magazine what better way to sell magazines then to manufacture controversy that people hungered for.

    Looking at your post the way the Ring is discussing this issue seems lifted from one of those college football shows in which "avenged losses" and "Head to Head" were very prominent themes. And seeing the era this happened in it makes you wonder how these ideas got into their heads.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2026
  3. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think it's because Byrd simply won the fight on a shoulder injury, and if there was a rematch unless Vitali hurt himself again, he would have won. Also back then there really was no big interest for a rematch because Byrd won on a fluke.
     
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  4. brb

    brb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Exactly.
     
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  5. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not quite. The fight was closer than it is remembered. Byrd only landed 8 less punches than Vitali and was way more efficient. Klitschko also injured his shoulder swinging at air cause Byrd was too slick. It was a legit win.
     
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  6. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    From what I remember, you consider Vitali to be the lineal champion, even tho he wasn't universally recognized, correct?
     
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  7. brb

    brb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Who cares that he only landed 8 more punches? He won almost every round. I forget what the scorecards were, but Byrd needed multiple knockdowns (which he definitely isn't going to get against Vitali) to win the fight.
     
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  8. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Scorecards were wide, but the fight was closer than the scorecards showed. A lot of people on this forum had Byrd winning 4 out of 9 rounds. At the end of the day, Vitali injured himself not being able to catch Byrd and quit.
     
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  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Historically there have been a number of heavyweight title claims for a vacant title, and whether or not they have put down roots usually depends upon public perception.

    Many people regarded Peter Maher as being the champion after Jim Corbett retired. He then lost the title claim to Bob Fitzsimmons, who lost it to Tom Sharkey by a highly criticized DQ. After that the claim lost all credibility, and there was little doubt that the winner of Corbett Fitzsimmons was going to be recognized as the new champion.

    After Jim Jeffries retired Marvin Hart was matched against Jack Root for the vacant title, and this was greatly criticized at the time. Hart lost to Tommy Burns, and while Burns was not a highly regarded champion, his high level of activity seems to have shored up the title claim, to the extent that it stood the test of time, where the Maher title claim didn't.

    After Max Schmeling won the title by DQ, it would be fair to say that his status as champion was precarious. His decision to take the highly ranked Young Stribling as his first title challenger seems to have done a lot to shore it up.

    So where does Vitally fit into all this?

    Personally I was willing to entertain his title claim, if it became widely accepted.

    He probably didn't do himself any favors by taking Danny Williams as his next and only challenger before he retired.

    He probably needed to take prompt action to shore up his title claim, and he didn't until it was too late.
     
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  10. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The article by Brent Matteo Alderson seemed to summarize it very well.

    In a way it’s kind of kind of hypocritical for me to disagree with their classification of Vitali as a former Heavyweight champion because at first I half-heartedly agreed with it because I thought that Vitali was one the best heavyweight in the world in lieu of Lennox Lewis’s retirement. I also felt that Vitali’s claim to the vacant title was supported by historical precedent since the only two times in heavyweight history when the lineage of the title was broken it had been restored by men that had been closely associated with the final title reigns of the retired champions.

    Problems quickly ensued and it seemed like Vitali’s claim to the title was diminishing on a daily basis before the year’s ends. Wladimir was starched by Lamon Brewster, which took a lot of prestige out of Sander’s win over Wlad. Instead of viewing Sanders as a fast southpaw with a strong punch, people started to view him as a pretty good middle-aged golfer who just happened to be the first one to expose the younger Klitschko. At the time, I was thinking, “Alright, maybe Corey Sanders really wasn’t one of the top five heavyweights in the world, but still Vitali is good and look what he did to Kirk Johnson, nobody has taken the Canadian out like that plus Don King is talking about a heavyweight tournament and Vitali will probably end up winning it.”

    Then what do you know, Vitali Klitchko became one of the most inactive champions in history and refused to fight anybody in the top five and jumped on the chance to fight Danny Williams after his win over Tyson despite the fact that Williams wasn’t even one of the top two heavyweights in England much less the world.

    And the situation just worsened by the minute. In 2005 Klitschko postponed two different bouts with Rahman citing medical reasons and then had the gull to ask the WBC for permission to fight in another voluntary defense before facing Rahman who was and is along with Toney and Brewster one of America’s top heavyweights. The WBC denied his request and the Klitschko-Rahman fight was scheduled. Hasim Rahman knew the score and had the feeling the entire time that the fight might not come off. “I’ll believe that I’m fighting Vitali Klitchko when he’s in the ring with me, until then I’m not sure, I don’t believe it, this man has done everything he could not to fight me.” The sad part is that Vitali Klitschko is one of the best heavyweights in the world and probably would have knocked Rahman out.


    From "Vitali Klitschko: A Heavyweight Pretender Ordained By the Bible Of Boxing"
     
  11. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yup.

    What confuses me is people getting upset because 1v3 fought for the lineal title and 2 was omitted. In any other era 1v3 is a very strong title matchup for the start of a new lineage.

    It just came out of the blue and I can see a motivation or inspiration these Ring people might have had for that.
     
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  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    To take a recent example, reactions to Daniel Dubois claim on the IBF title are instructive.

    When he was awarded the title outside the ring, people wee understandably very critical.

    Then after he demolished Anthony Joshua, people were like "OK Dubois is a real champion after all", even though it made literally no difference to the validity of the claim.

    We see the same thinking playing out with the title claims of Maher, Hart, Schmeling and of course Klitschko himself.
     
  13. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Dubois won his title by beating Hrgovic for an interim title. Then got promoted. He won that in the ring. Promotions seldom happen as the result of a fight they happen as the result of politics. Thats just the way it works.

    I think theres two different meaning of "real champion"

    Lineal claim

    And "this guys the real deal" he might beat the lineal champ or beat the lineal champ in a rematch.

    Dubois had a tiny lineal claim due to the foul thing.
     
  14. McCallumsJab

    McCallumsJab Member Full Member

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    No way should the Sanders-Vitali winner have been Lineal to the fans. The Ring can do what they want with their magazine ofcourse. Sanders has an argument for being a top 3 HW off his Wlad win, which looked worse after Brewster repeated the feat before Vitali-Sanders.

    Vitali's claim to be top 5 is being talented and looking good in a loss to Lennox Lewis. His best wins are Kirk Johnson and Larry Donald. They are the worst wins of any of the top active boxers

    Ruiz beat Kirk Johnson first. Ruiz had beaten Holyfield, Kirk Johnson, Rahman but lost to Jones Jr. He was still WBA champion when this fight took place. He's nowhere near top 3 on wins.

    Byrd beat Holyfield, Tua, Vitali but lost to Wlad. And before anyone pretends the Vitali fight wasn't real, he was making Vitali miss and making him pay and he'd been walking Vitali down for several rounds before the stoppage.

    There's also the fact Rahman beat Sanders emphatically but lost to Holyfield and Ruiz.

    The other problem was Don King, kept Byrd, Ruiz in house so unifications were very hard to make with him milking them.
     
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  15. McCallumsJab

    McCallumsJab Member Full Member

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    Those cards were filled out 2 weeks in advance because it was hosted in partisan Germany. Byrd was making him miss and making him pay and walking him down and beating him up towards the time Vitali quit.
     
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