Vitali Klitschko's power.

Is there a case for someone not being on the list of these 20 pre-selected champions who could have been ranked above Lewis or Vitali?

And it indeed was a poll that's intentions was to list the greatest heavyweights of all time: "This heavyweight poll has different criteria from previous exercises. Rather than match champions against each other in a round-robin tournament, the electors were asked to rank them in order of greatness. This is more than who would have beaten who. Other considerations are involved."

"Great is a hard word to define, and greatness is subjective. It was up to each panelist to quantify greatness.
A fighter’s skill level is important. But so too is that fighter’s skill level within the context of his time.
How great was each fighter within his era? Was he the best of his era? Dominant in his era? How many other great heavyweights fought in his era? Great rivalries make great fighters. Did he fight the other great heavyweights of his time? Which elite fighters who were in their prime did he beat? One fight can go a long way toward defining a fighter’s legacy.
A great fighter needs great competition. That doesn’t necessarily translate into a pristine record."

 

Above Vitali? I'd say there are several candidates that didn’t make the poll. But that's not the point. The point is that there were no options other than the 20 names in the poll.

Even one of the electors asked to replace Vitali and Fitz with Schmeling and Langford, which kind of makes the point for me.

The point you are trying to make above is not clear.

I've read the article. Its framing is straightforward. But that doesn't change the fact that the poll was conducted on a closed field of 20 heavyweights, not on all heavyweights in history.

Surely, you see this and comprehend the implications, right?

 

If you think Vitali was a better fighter then Lennox ,we have nothing further to talk about.

 

Even if we add Schmeling and Langford to the occasion, you still have both Lewis and Vitali in the Top 20, so rated not far away of each other. I don't agree with the list. To me f.e. Wlad and Vitali are from the different stratosphere whereas here they are ranked right next to each other. mcvey just asked to show him the list where "Vitali is ranked anywhere near the same stratosphere as Lennox". Well, that's the list.

 

Its math for a simpleton. You're only taking into account what you want to. It would be like me saying there is a 100% chance that Lewis would have ripped Vits face off again because he had already done iit in their previous fight. That would be me just taking into account what I wanted to. But the fact is scar tissue has a good probability of reoping. I'll educate you.
Scar tissue is much easier to cut again because it lacks the structural integrity and elasticity of normal, uninjured skin. In boxing and combat sports, repetitive trauma to the same area—such as over the eyebrows—causes the fibrous, poorly organized replacement tissue to split open more easily than the surrounding skin. [1, 2, 3, 4]
The biological reasons for this weakness include:

• Disorganized Collagen: Healthy skin features collagen fibers woven in a flexible, multidirectional "basketweave" pattern. Scar tissue collagen is aligned in a single, parallel direction, making it weak when pulled or stressed from different angles. [1, 2]
• Reduced Elasticity: Scar tissue contains a lower density of elastic fibers, making it stiff and less capable of stretching or absorbing the impact of a punch. [1, 2]
• Lower Tensile Strength: Mature scars only regain about 70% to 80% of the strength of the original skin. [1]
• Lack of Blood Vessels: Scar tissue has fewer blood vessels, which impairs its overall health and ability to heal cleanly if cut again. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• Loss of Skin Appendages: It contains no hair follicles or sweat glands, further compromising its natural resilience

So as you can see, your math doesn't add up....genius.

So no quotes from Lewis team saying he intentionally came in heavy as a strategy? I didn't think so. You made that up hoping it would fly. It doesnt.

Anyone who has ever fought before can tell you that extra weight saps your stamina, slows you down and makes you less sharp. If you want Im sure I can find an article explaining this as well. Just look at the difference in the first and second Rahman fight.

 

And my point has been to contextualize the listing you provided. In other words, as interesting as the article in the May 2017 issue of The Ring might be, it's a poll that didn't even look at the whole of heavyweight history and, more than that, a participant in the poll actually requested that Vitali be replaced. This means he didn't think Vitali belonged in the Top-20, and this is more aligned with such lists in general.

Why was Vitali included in the poll in the first place? Had he not been, I doubt we'd have seen a petition for his inclusion.

A poll without Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, Sam McVey, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Elmer Ray, Floyd Patterson, and Ken Norton, to name but a baker's dozen, is definitely uplifting Vitali's placement.

Similarly, most lists will include Lewis in their Top-10. So, in general, Vitali is Top-30, and Lewis is Top-10. That's a significant difference and really not worth arguing over.

 

Sorry meant to post this :
Agree, by any standards Lewis is 5/8 in HW history, I have him at worst 5, as for Vitali I have never considered him in my listings, never have maybe it's me ?
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

Well Grumpy old me doesn't agree with it! Lewis is top ten imo.

 

I wonder why? By what criteria? CV?
Lewis crushes Vit's CV!
Wlad also crushes Vit's CV.
And yet I know many people—reasonable people—who claim Vit was just as good a fighter as Wlad, even though everyone admits Wlad's resume is much better.
You can't do that with Lewis—the sacred cow of boxing. Most likely, Tucker 1993, Holy 1999, or his hypothetical twin from 2003 are completely beyond Vit's peak.

You're right, we have nothing to discuss.

 

I don't agree either, he's in my Top 5 while I don't know if Vitali would make my Top 20.

 

Did you just say prime vs prime is 50/50 lmfao. 4 different lacerations being opened wasn't luck a peak Lewis who isn't in the 250s would do a better job and beat Vitali by close decision or doctor stoppage. Ridiculous lol. Vitali was literally at his apex, 32 years old, motivated to cause the upset against the older champion and in perfect shape.

 

Mate, his logic is even more flawed than that. So much so, that I assume he's trolling, its difficult to believe he genuinely doesn't understand the glaring flaw in his "logic".

His stated position that there would be a c.2% chance Lewis would have stopped Vitali on cuts in a rematch, on the basis that Vitali was only stopped on cuts in 2% of his fights, ignores the fact that Lewis hit Vitali more often, and harder, than any other opponent did, before we even get into your valid points on scar tissue. This core logic is akin to saying "there's only a 3% chance Tyson would have stopped Spinks in a rematch, because Spinks was only stopped in 3% of his fights".

 

Really?
Ray Mercer, 35, gained more than twice as much weight between the Holyfield fight and the Lewis fight than Lewis did between the Tyson fight and the Vit fight!!!
He hasn't won a fight in 3 years!!
And yet, I give Lewis, who was primed under Steward, a fair fight!! So what if Mercer were 5 years younger and not as fat as he was?
Damn, every time I read Lewis vs. Klitschko, I hear how terribly overweight Lennox was, but I've never read that Mercer was overweight... much more.
I always hear that Rahman had a lucky punch; Lewis could never have a lucky punch, although in the Vit fight, ONE punch was decisive: an overhand right thrown at the beginning of the 3rd round. A punch that was Lennox's signature strike, but against which Vit, fighting with his hands down, leaning on his back leg and relying solely on his deflection, was completely unable to defend. A tragic stylistic mismatch.

The rest of the fight was the aftermath of that punch!!

Yes, it's 50-50 for me. In subsequent fights, Vit got better and better. But against Lewis, he was incredibly unlucky. Half an inch higher and he would have gotten a punch in the forehead.