Vitali Klitschko's wasted talent

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Jan 11, 2020.


  1. Fergy

    Fergy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Seem to remember a few in the media giving Danny Williams a fair shot at Klitchko, due to his shock win over Tyson! And of course he got hammered..
     
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Williams was never world class ,and its debateable he was ever really Euro level,imo.
     
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  3. Fergy

    Fergy Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't think he was tbh, he got extremely lucky to meet a washed up Tyson. Even then he was rocked like hell to start with. Bruno would probably have crushed him in a few rounds in his heyday.
     
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  4. The Slaps

    The Slaps New Member Full Member

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    Williams was a hype job after beating Tyson, the British media were pumping him like no tomorrow. Vitali at this time was still trying to get Lewis out of retirement. Do you know if this was a mandatory match up for Vitali? If not I was thinking was he just trying to break into the British public and media with this fight maybe to put pressure on Lewis and get his rematch, that still pops up in the media as if it's still in
    talks 18 years later :)
     
  5. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Alas, Williams was fodder at the World level and a long, outside chance at European level.

    He was, more often than not, however, a good domestic and commonwealth level fighter, in his day. But him, Francis, Sprott, Skelton, Gammer and Harrison were all much of a muchness.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Samil Sam spanked him.
    Sad to see he is still fighting at ,46?
     
  7. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes - Sam gave him a bit of a battering and, yep - Williams is 46 years old. But, I do recall seeing an article recently, which implied he was hanging 'em up for good. Though, I don't know whether that means he actually will.
     
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  8. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    He’s much better off than Sam is.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Many of Vitali's opponents in his comeback, 4 years outside the ring in his late 30's to early 40's were are ranked. McGrain even showed a few of them. He made a mistake or two, but they post wasn't terrible. Again, Haye and Valuev RAN from fights with Vitali.

    Compared to Wilder or Fury, Vitali has many more wins over top ten opponents.

    Stop making excuses for Haye. Its BS, just like your pick for Haye to upset Wlad was BS!

    Just a few links of Haye backing out.

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    Haye Turns down VItlai for Chisora!


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    2nd duck! " We had a contract ready for Haye, had booked an arena, but he turned us down for a second time – the first time he chose to face Nikolai Valuev instead.” "

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    I think I see a pattern here. You like fighters who duck their top competition.
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    The injury was the only reason he lost to Byrd. He was well ahead on the cards. Had the fight been for higher stakes later in his career, maybe he finishes it. The list of fighters who quit with out a major injury is a very long one Blade. Shall I name a few of your favorites?

    Vitali was up 4-2 on all cards vs Lewis. The ring doctor stopped it on a cut that wasn't bleeding at the time of stoppage. Lewis refused the re-match. He was gassed and lucky they fight was stopped when it was.
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    While it's true they all dominated for 10 years, a rarity in any sport, boxing isn't a team game like basketball. Russell dominated in the 1950's and 1960's vs smaller players confined to the USA. The Klitschko's dominated a much bigger class of boxers, and did it at a time when the sport was internationalized. That's a true world champion.

    If boxing was open to the rest of the world, the history of the sport would be changed greatly. That has only been the case for the past 15 -20 years or so.
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The rest of the world didn't have boxers as good as the U.S. prior to the 80's. Other than Russia and Cuba's excellent amateur programs, there simply weren't that many countries outside of Latin America/South American and some European countries like the U.K that were filled with boxing talent. The rest of the world simply wasnt that interested and even the ones who did didnt have the amount of top world class trainers/equipment/boxing knowledge. Some countries had also flat out banned the sport.

    As for the Klitschkos defeating larger men, that is true but there are pros and cons with that. With the reduction of 15 rounds to 12 rounds and fighters being encouraged to lift weights and gain weight, we saw fighters taking drastically different approaches to how they fought and trained. We know from several interviews that as recently as the 70's heavyweights like Norton, Ali, Holmes, Foreman, even Frazier etc actually walked around at 230-240 lbs and trained down to their ideal weight range for maximum efficiency. This wasn't done for mere aesthetics, it made them faster, sharper, and had more energy to throw dozens of punches per round at an insane pace. They were able to rally in the later rounds and find sudden bursts of energy for a stoppage, to use their legs, or brawl if push came to shove. In that regard fighters of the 90's like Holyfield were a throwback and he would have fit right in.

    As I alluded to earlier, there were pros and cons with making fights shorter and embracing weight training and being bigger. The pros were that obviously a fighter had less wear and tear throughout his career and in training going for 12. The fighters become stronger and in some cases more crowd pleasing able to deliver big punches. However, we also saw a decline in technique and cardio for many fighters. While it's true boxing evolved overall with access to the internet, globalization to trade knowledge and coaches, and a better understanding of medicine and physical fitness, not all fighters took advantage of it. Some took it for granted.

    Look no further than lardasses like Bermane Stiverne who went from exciting slugger to shopworn inactive bum in less than 3 years. Ballooning up to a disgusting 270. Dillian Whyte is another exciting puncher, active, has a high ranking but im his most recent fight also ballooned up to an unacceptable 270 something and had a horrendous and boring fight with wach who was never exactly great to begin with. I wish these were isolates incidents but the late 90's to the Klitschko era has several guys like these who figure there's no need to cut weight since they aren't trying to win Mr. universe contests since they have a misguided idea that they can simply outweigh and bully/outmuscle a much smaller opponent.

    It affects the pace of the fight too as the lumbering behemoths end up inevitably leaning on each other gasping for air as early as the 3rd round--their large bodies demanding more oxygen than their training provided them. Landing like 6 or 7 punches per round with ugly sumo esque clinching and pushing and pitter patter "body shots" and arm punches lazy hooks to the side of the head. The Klitschkos, specifically Wladmir is not innocent of this either. He had an ugly fight with the flabby povetkin that involved lots of Greco Roman Wrestling. Or the excessive clinching and leaning against Haye for which he lost a point. Or the snooze fest against Tyson Fury where the 27 year old allowed himself to tip the scales at 247 despite this being the biggest fight of his career and both men threw punches like they were paying for them (that is, hardly throwing any). Was it effective? Yes, he frustrated many opponents and often won a wide decision. Was it exciting? Hell no.

    You'll also notice the Klitschkos were so far above their average opponent in ring IQ and physical ability that many would go into a defensive shell and either wait for one big shot, get battered into a stoppage loss, or be too scared to do anything and allow themselves to lose rather than get hit. This, again, led to very boring fights. Not their fault they practiced hard and were skilled but it does say something about their era when the most memorable and exciting fights were when they lost or struggled badly (Samuel Peter, lamon Brewster, Sanders, Lennox, Joshua, etc).

    The other overlooked element is that with 4 belts it made it that much harder for the best to fight the best. Rankings were confusing and promoting very puzzling to the casual observer. You didnt (usually) have to worry about the best fighting the best in other eras. Fighters were also much more ACTIVE and didn't take just 1 or 2 fights every year (sometimes less) like they do now. It is a full time job and you should always be prepared for a phone call or to travel everywhere. Nowadays people protect and groom fighters feeding them bums for 3, 4, 5 years and taking forever to step up so they can finesse and weasel their way into am eliminator or title shot; preferably a vacant belt or a weak champion. It didn't help that the Klitschkos wouldn't fight each other and there was never a clear #1 in the division for literally years.

    That was essentially my point in bringing up Bill Russel that it stopped being exciting after a while because his team was ludicrously above the average team. Does it really matter the "international" spread the sport had seen if it didnt produce variety or exciting challengers to the Klitschkos throne...?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  13. Ra's Al-Ghul

    Ra's Al-Ghul The one and only! Full Member

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    No you didn't! Tua was never ranked at 6, he was when he faced Lewis at place 9 in the indepentend computer world ranking (and never higher), but lost 2002 vs. Byrd comfortable.

    Klitschko could only defend his title against boxers which were in the WBC ranking listed. These which were not like Powetkin and Pullew were not available.
    And his power demonstration against Larry "The Legend" Donald (who was clearly top 15 in 2002) less than a year before who totally dominated Evander Holyfield.
    When boxers are not listed, then doesn't sanction the WBC the fight, which is for everyone obvious but you, because you are a bigger idiot than expected.

    By the way is the place for Kabayal realistic for that body, who was even higher ranked in the WBO. And Washington deserved this in it due to his knockout over Helenius.
    Oquendo retired, but his ranking was before was saved by the decision of an American court, which you would know if you had a little clue about boxing.
    Schwarz was at place 2 in the WBO ranking when Fury fought him, because he was Youth champion in intercontinantal champion which he defended several times (in the past earned this title the automatic mandatory position).
    These are just list of challengers which are available and not of all. But if you are not in the top 15 of it, you can't get a shot in that body, simple as that.
    Where was Phil Jackson or Francois Botha when Lewis defended his title against them?
    Was Chuck Weppner even top 30 when Ali fought him (for his titles)?
     
  14. THE BLADE 2

    THE BLADE 2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I admit that there were mitigating circumstances.But the fact is that he lost these fights and they were not robberies.
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Vitali's comeback opponents
    Peter 2008 Ranked. Vitali didn't have any choice here he had to fight him if he wanted the title.
    Arreola 2009 Ranked
    Johnson 2009 Unranked
    Sosnowski 2010 Unranked
    Briggs 2010 Unranked
    Solis 2011 Unranked
    Adamek 2011 Ranked
    Chisora 2012 Unranked
    Charr 2012 Unranked

    NB 3 out of 9 is not" many".lol
    If I liked fighters that ducked top competition I would be a fan of Jim Jeffries, who ducked Childs,Johnson,McVey ,and Martin !lol
     


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