Vladimir Klitschko, Top Ten Worthy?

If someone has him just in at ten, it's not something I'd call them crazy for. There are some posters here that I respect that I seem to recall having him there already. He's not in mine. Over the last year and a half or so I've been reluctantly switching him back and forth with Jeffries as I thought and rethought it. Now, I've warmed up to the idea of having him there (15) where Jeffries was.

You can go back and forth about linearity and a one of the poorest losses we've seen out of the modern champs in a while, and the quality of his opposition, but in the end you still also have to contend with the fact that there were four major ABC belts and the Ring belt and of those five, he collected four, one at a time, to put them together, in an era and context where being the champion is possibly the most convoluted and confused idea it's ever been in boxing history. 17-0 streak in eight years and 14 consecutive title fights with some tough fighters and some very good fighters, despite no single truly great opponent, and he's the third longest actively defending heavyweight champion of the world, if I'm not mistaken. He's a tricky career to rate because there are interesting knocks on him but when you just look at the body of work, it's enough to stand on so that rating him just in the top ten is not outrageous at all anymore.

 

He's a lock for the top 10 by any measure. I see no rationale which could put Marciano, Johnson or Dempsey in front of him.

 

As time goes on, the fight for the Top Ten, by definition becomes more competitive. I do not have Liston or Frazier over him but certainly the rest.

 

Marciano and Johnson have better records, better names, and recognizably great opposition on their records. Wlad has some longevity and a good string but it's tough to surpass the ATGs when Byrd and Haye are perhaps the best name on your record. I think it's also necessary and in some sense fair to put fighters of a certain style, particularly at HW (Bigger men, bigger damage, more wear & tear, etc) within a proper context. Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey, and even Tyson are never going to have the same kind of longevity as rangier boxer types like the Klitschko's, Lewis, Holmes, Ali, and even Louis. Tyson actually had a chance to do it because he started and became champion young but he sort of blew it. Either way, Tyson still would've probably fizzled out quicker than a bigger boxer type fighter.

If you don't, your HW list will just be littered with bigger boxer-puncher/mover types, and I'm not sure that's necessarily right. A blistering rise and strong, flashy dominance/hold on the title as that guy counts for something. If you appreciate dominance, KO's, some form of strong consistency, and that big name on your record than the Frazier, Tyson, and Marciano types should all make your top 10. Frazier has Ali, Tyson has his dominance, and Marciano has his dominance/consistency and undefeated record. And each of those men have far more forgivable losses. Let's be real when we can honestly assess that Wlad can't beat the #2 man of his era in the division. He's almost like Dempsey in this regard but for different reasons (Perhaps it is not the same and not as bad but it's a fair case to be made).

As for as I'm concerned, I can't rank Wlad higher than #11.

 

Who does Johnson have better that was an established great heavyweight when he fought him? 154 pound Langford? Can you imagine the flack Waldo would get for fighting Sergio Martinez and calling it one of his best victory? A green Sam McVea or a .500 Joe Jeanette? A 5 year inactive Jeffries who had no warm-up fights? How about a 167 pound Tommy Burns? Again, would you be giving Wlad credit for fighting Kessler?

Marciano fought guys at the very end of their string... Charles went .500 for the rest of his career. Walcott let the tide of the division recede until he looked high and dry when in fact he was in his last two fights overstaying his welcome. Moore was an ancient light heavy.

Again, how would we react if Wlad tried to call Mormeck one of his great victories?

 

He's top 10 easy maybe even top5. Longevity should get him in no sweat.

Marciano undefeated HW champion 49-0 who knocked out the whole division is far more superior then anything Wladimir has done. There are plenty of good names out there to fight but he for some reasons chooses not too. We'll see his next opponent to prove my point.

Johnson if it was on fighting ability ranks ahead of Wladimir easy.

Dempsey I agree with you.

 

Skittlez/FelixTrinidad is a bitter butthurt brittard Klitschko hater troll who has been banned thousands of times from ESB and the scene.

 

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Quotes from Emanuel Steward

“Wladimir is gonna be the one I don’t think I could train a man to beat the way he is. I’m serious. I’ve never had a fighter – I went from Holyfield and all the guys I’ve worked with, never, Lennox – Wladimir is a very, very committed, very difficult fighter to beat. Because he won’t let you fight him. He makes you fight what he wants you to fight. But the biggest thing which I think people are not looking at is his speed for a big man. Tremendous speed. Foot Speed. He can move in, explode, move out, move back in, explode, and I’ve never seen anyone that could…move in and out and be in perfect balance”

"Wladimir has better one-punch knockout capability than Lennox"

"Wlad has the best footwork, coordination and balance of any fighter I ever worked with. He’s the most accurate, single-punch knockout guy I have ever seen. A guy can be completely fine, not hurt, and Wladimir can put his lights out with one shot."

"Wladimir’s coordination is better and he is the most powerful natural talent than any other heavyweight I have worked with."

"In terms of jab, Wladimir is the best and after him I would put Lennox. In terms of boxing arsenal, Wladimir is better than Lennox."

 

My Top 3 Greatest Heavyweights of all time

1. Klitschko
2. Klitschko
3. Lewis

Wlad is more talented than Vitali and Lewis.

Wlad dominates Lewis like Vitali did and knocks him out like McCall and Rahman did.

Lewis would get brutally KTFO by a steelhammer right hand from Wlad.

 

And Johnson was 185. Not exactly in his physical prime, either. Wlad's had just as great, even greater weight disparities in fights. Different times

Awful analogy.

The same McVea that beat Denver Ed Martin.

Green Jeannette. Let's be frank, these guys where fighting each other. The best of an early black bunch. Jeannette still beat a small Langford at the time. And it's not like Johnson beat Jeannette once. Jeannette was always a natural HW for that time, unlike Johnson and Langford. Six months after the Johnson fight he beat Young Peter Jackson and Sam Mcvey. It's not like fighters where properly managed back then. I say how much better did he get in that time? Clearly he was talented, and a rough patch and scattered records early on says more about the difference in managing from then and now. Especially black fighters, I imagine. Just thrown out to the lions. Here is the kicker. He beat him multiple times. He beat all these guys multiple times. It matters. Not to you, that's fine.

How does that win compare to Dempsey's win over Williard? I ask because fighting has evolved since the late 1800's, early 1900's. Boxing is structured in a way where a champ can't be inactive for three years or comeback in 5 years and fight for the title without a warm-up, buildup, or some comeback fight worth some merit. Different times and different standards. It's a slightly different context (HW's fighting MW's, etc. And when the MW wins we give him credit. Can we have it both ways? It was just different).

Yawn. What's Johnson supposed to do not go for the championship?

Charles was practically beaten into ALS (Some say he may have had signs earlier than that) by Marciano. Marciano was a very damaging fighter. A lot like Tyson in that respect. Somewhat of a career-breaker. Not a dangle you like a mouse being played by a cat type fighter.

For all extensive purposes, Wladimir is a superior fighter than Jack Johnson and Rocky Marciano at Heavyweight. Meaning he pulverizes either of them and their opposition. That is not how greatness is rated, though. And in terms of the record and evaluating the greatness in their times Marciano and Johnson still reign ahead. While HW History wasn't very extensive at the time, Johnson during the end of his reign was considered the greatest HW ever. This wasn't just blind idolatry (Johnson was a despised black man). The record and skills backed that.

 

May I remind you that a black man said that. Does that in any twisted way undermine the value of such quotes? I know it tears you up and confuses you a little inside.

 

Top 30ish. Not top 10.

He has had longevity now sure. But who has he beaten?

Best wins Chris Byrd,Sam Peter (1) and David Haye. OK fine.

 

Now that's just ridiculous

 

More than many HW Champions can say.