Waging War - Marvin Hagler

That proves my point. Tommy gave out in the late rounds under leonard's assault but did not during rounds 6,7 when leonard poured it on.

 

here come the excuses, Marv is ESB's most protected fighter

 

redrooster, you say there is no way you are using weight as an excuse for Hearns' loss to Leonard, then you say if Hearn's had two more pounds of muscle he would have won the fight? That makes sense.

You think experience makes up for athletism. Can Carmen Basilio take Berto right now? He is more experienced. Why don't we just have Hagler fight Pavlik in 2008? Pavilik will get his inexperienced ass kicked, right?

Ray Leonard's hand speed was once in the same league as Meldrick Taylor's. Taylor showed his hands were faster than Norris' in the first round of their fight. Norris looked faster than Leonard the night they fought. Are you really saying Leonard was as good as ever?

 

Leonard's handspeed was not what Meldrick's was. You are grossly in error! What's more, Meldrick was busier throughout a fight! Leonard is really nothing more than a runner who fights in spurts otherwise known as flurrying.

As for Norris and Taylor, Meldrick might be a shade faster than Norris but that didnt stop him from connecting. Terry began taking control in the second round so your point is quite moot. The fight was over in four rounds or hadnt you noticed?

So even if Ray was in his prime it wouldnt matter. They could have ten fights between them and he'd still lose no matter what.

I watched Ray take out kalule and I was saying what's the big deal?

What was the big deal? From what I saw Leonard didnt display any special abilities. He certainly didnt display hand speed on the level of a Meldrick Taylor or Terry Norris. That means he's getting a whipping no matter what.

And the other problem for Ray is he didnt carry a punch like Julian Jackson. That means he has to score a lot if he stands a chance to knock out Terry and that's the only way he could win. But that isnt happening either because Terry doesnt stay in front for Ray to hit with combinations. You could see that in the fight they had. He is always on the move and gets his punches off faster than Ray.

Only twice did Terry get hit with combinations. THe first time was late in the first when Terry was pressing Ray and Ray countered. To his dismay however, most of them caught only shoulders or grazed the top of his head. Terry keeps his gloves up well and keeps that chin tucked in also which make him a difficult target. Norris is a well schooled fighter.

The second time Terry was hit with a combination was late in the 11th when he relaxed his guard and dropped his hands. Ray connected with four or five clean shots to the head but Terry brushed it off as though it were nothing more than a mild spring rain. He didnt even blink.



Ray's always been confused by someone who can move like Tommy because it throws him off since he spends more time figuring when and how to score. I've seen it in his earlier fights too with kalule, Hearns, Howard, Bonds. He just takes too much time looking for openings before he feels comfortable enough to unload. He is not a complete fighter-never has been and because of this flaw in his style, Norris was coninuously able to beat him to the punch.

And besides that, Norris stipped Leonard of all his confidence by the third round. rounds two and three were nightmares for Ray. There could be no mocking of the opponent this night. He only does that when things are going his way. By the fifth round the fight had already settled into a groove and there was nothing Leonard could do to change it.

I'm sorry but that's how it is. Ray was flawed. He knew he couldn't handle a good boxer after the Hearns fight. His mangement probably warned him about the fact that he had a character flaw that could be exploited by the right fighter. That fighter would be Terry Norris.

Look at Hagler when he met Hearns. hagler didnt wait for openings. He would have lost letting Tommy fight at a comfortable pace. he walked straight into the jaws of death.

Its too much to ask any other fighter to put on the kind of show Hagler did that night but for Ray really needed to take more initiative in a fight. You can see from the Hearns fight he was much more comfortable backtracking.

leonard did pull it out but he had help.

 

Antuofermo went to war with him, and pressed whole fight in first bout, in my opinion he won. I know some disagree, but if you do, still have to admit Vito did take it to him whole fight, and hurt him at least twice late.

 

I agree that if that fight was toe-to-toe all the way, then Vito may have won, but the fight as it was, was definitely an early xmas gift for Antuofermo. Kevin Finnegan proved too that going head-to-head wasn't a bad thing. He was way behind in their first fight, until dangerous cuts made him go for broke and he won three rounds in a row and was just a point behind going into the 9th, when Mickey Duff pulled him out with a badly gashed cheekbone.

 

Good to see there's two of us

:good

 

What's all this evaluation of Hagler before he won the title? What's your point? Let's all base Tyson's ablility on his subdued perfomance against Tillis. While we're at it let's rate Ali on some of his sub par perfomances before he met Liston. And so on and so on. If you want to criticize a fighter, do it while he is at his best. Point out his strengths and weaknesses when he is at the top.

 

Vito won? Yep and the Queen of England is a man.

 

Well he's taking plenty of punishment on this board. And are you seriously suggesting Hagler was an experienced fighter when he first met Monroe?

 

The thread asks "could you wage a war with hagler and win". My answer, which is accurate, is YES. What is the point of merely including his title defences when we know the answer is 'NO'? I know it's upsetting you, never mind.

 

Far from upset, Conteh, having a very good time debating with you guys. I would assume the thread refers to Hagler at his peak, surely? Otherwise what parameters should we use...."could you wage war with Hagler in his first pro fight?"

Anyway, for what its worth of course someone could wage war with Hagler and win. If Hagler decided not to box and decided on a bang up with someone like Jake Lamotta then you'd have to favor Lamotta. I talking peak Hagler for your reference, not the greener more inexperienced Hagler that you love to refer to. Sorry if I'm upsetting you. :yep

 

Then squeeze her balls and ask her to cough, she's about due for a check-up doc. :shock:

 

Well, being primed for your, apparently nearly two years too late, title shot is a decent barometer of whether Marv could be beaten in an all-out war, so the Antuofermo fight tells me again that the answer's 'yes'.

 

Sorry what's your point? Are you suggesting that fight was an all out war? I thought for the first 10 rounds Hagler put on a CLINIC. After that it was a fairly entertaining battle between a real tough nut and a multi - talented challenger who was clearly intimidated by the prospect of going 15 rounds (which I think nearly all of today's fighters would be petrified of). Wouldn't really class that bout as a war. I wouldn't say that Hagler was at his peak for that fight either. That came about three years later.

I WOULD say that you (and Hank ) are bordering on criminal insanity if you think Vito won the fight.:smoke But Gawd bless ya. Say want you want about Hagler. He was a robot....he was overcautious....he relied too much on his cornermen for stategy....but one thing he wasn't was a loser against Vito. PLEASE let's keep the discussion sensible.

By the way, I also think the answer is yes with my Lamotta example as stated.