Wake up: V. Klit is a solid top-10 ATG!

Mr. Bill,

If you rate Vitali #7 all time, where do you rate Chris Byrd, who beat vitali?

 

I think I'm starting to prefer your ridiculous Vitali hate to the ridiculous Vitali love. I don't like either one but I used to prefer the love, as I'm generally a positive person but with the recent uncomfortable anal reaction developments, I'm starting to prefer your crap. Which is sad. I don't want to be a negative person.

 

So this is reguarding H2H right?
Frazier and Marciano need to be over Vitali klitschko....Come on, you think Vitali would beat holyfield and tyson?
I don't think so.
He doesn't rank on an atg 10 list, his brother is much more deserving, but really, I don't think either klits rank that high.

 

Again, I'm not saying it would be an automatic big help. I think that it would be a factor, to some extent, against some opposition. Fighters get intimidated, even ATGs. Michael Spinks is an ATG, but he was shitting his pants in the ringwalk against Tyson. Foreman was unsettled by Ali in the leadup to the Rumble, and it showed in his performance.

Tyson didn't steamroll Bonecrusher Smith, or Razor Ruddock, or Mitch Green, or Quick Tillis. Once they survived the first couple of rounds, he was content to walk to a decision, and they all took two or three rounds off him along the way. How many rounds do you think all three of them combined win against Vitali?

Ali BTW is the GOAT. I don't say Vitali beats him, but I will say that lesser fighters than Vitali, with lesser physical gifts and easier styles to face, sometimes ran Ali close and in Norton's case beat him over a trilogy.

I am well aware that Vitali lacks a defining win against an ATG. (I consider the Lewis fight to be a fair and legitimate win for Lennox, but inconclusive in terms of how beatable it actually shows Vitali to be. He showed ATG-level chin and determination in that one, after all)

Vitali hasn't had the opportunity to fight any ATGs aside from Lewis, who beat him with the help of some good fortune. Vitali screamed for a rematch, but none was forthcoming and fair enough.

But if Joe Bugner can win three rounds out of 12 in a decision loss against a 31 year old Ali, I see no reason why it's impossible for Vitali to win seven rounds.

If Oscar Bonavena can knock down an undefeated Frazier twice and lose a razor-close split decision, I think Vitali can outpoint or stop him.

If Quick Tillis can win 4 rounds in losing a 10 round decision against an undefeated, 20 year old Mike Tyson, I don't think it's sacrilege to consider that Vitali might do better.

And so on, and so on. This is the thing. EVERY ATG has these fights where unfancied opponents ran them close on the cards, knocked them down heavily, or even beat them.

Except Vitali. All his opponents, every single one of his opponents, gets shut out on the cards, never looks in control of the fight, and then almost inevitably gets stopped. No disputed decisions. No recorded knockdowns. No stylistic struggles. The only one who gave him trouble was an old Lewis, who is the only ATG who isn't dwarfed, and who was perhaps fortunate in the circumstances of his (entirely legitimate) victory.

Hey, I just threw it out there. It's not an important part of Vitali's case. But I maintain that his height and size by itself will throw many opponents off their games. That goes for the undersized heavies who find themselves matched against an athletic giant with an iron chin and an awkward style, and it goes for the heavies who spent their careers being the bigger, stronger man and who have never before had to look up during the staredown.

:hat

 

A PRIME Klit? Okay. that makes sense that a prime klit would do better then an aging Liston.

Liston still should rank way higher above Vitali on the atg list.

 

Notched up what was actually my first top 15 heavyweight list very quickly yesterday, feel free to criticise.

1. Muhammad Ali.
2. Joe Louis.
3. Larry Holmes.
4. Lennox Lewis.
5. Rocky Marciano.
6. George Foreman.
7. Jack Johnson.
8. Joe Frazier.
9. Sonny Liston.
10. Jim Jeffries.
11. Jack Dempsey
12. Evander Holyfield.
13. Harry Wills.
14. Mike Tyson.
15. Jersey Joe Walcott.

I can't see a case for him being above any of those. Doubtful he'd be in the top 20, my next 5 I was thinking something like:

16. Peter Jackson.
17. Max Schmeling.
18. Floyd Patterson.
19. Riddick Bowe.
20. Sam Langford.

But I'm not happy with that at all. I don't know whether Patterson should crack the top 20. Bowe is another, but I found it hard to ignore the quality of his wins over Holyfield and the fact that he's a big super-heavyweight with a lot of intangibles going for him. Same with Langford, didn't like him in the top 20 but found it hard to ignore the quality of his HW resumé (Wills, McVea, Jeanette, Fireman Jim Flynn, Gunboat Smith etc).

PS. For what it's worth, not entirely happy with Holmes at #3 either, Liston down in #9 or Tyson at #14.

 

Aside from Holyfield, Bowe fought nobody at all in his career. He made two of the worst title defences ever, was guilty of the worst ducking job in heavyweight (perhaps boxing) history, and then got the living **** kicked out of him twice by Vitali-Lite, Andrew Golota.

Also it is ridiculous to not have Wlad in there, but to have Peter Jackson (died in 1901), Sam Langford (5'7", 180 pounds), Harry Wills (never faced the champ), Jim Jeffries (21 pro fights, full film of none of them) and Jack Johnson at #7 is way way too high, he's too far back to accurately judge.

:hat

 

Funny how you say aside from Holyfield he fought nobody, by that same logic, aside from Lewis, Vitali fought nobody.
Bowe was a shot fighter against Golota, thanks to 3 grueling wars with Evander, plus increasingly awful diet and conditioning.

 

Nice list. Where is Ezzard Charles?

 

Right, so that seed of doubt helped Foreman then?

So Holy's self-belief intimidated Mike because it made Tyson less confident, on account of Tyson being used to his opponents being scared. So we're agreed.

:hat

 

For the last ****ing time, I'm not "hung up on it." I said that it may be a factor to some degree, against some opponents. Just like Foreman's size and demeanour intimidated some of his opponents. Just like Ali's verbal belittling and self-belief affected some opponent's confidence. Just like Tyson's very aura terrified some opponents.

Against most ATGs, it's nothing. But Vitali's physical presence is going to throw some fighters off their game, just as Tyson's did.

By the 5th round Foreman was going through the motions. He hadn't knocked Ali down, he was tired, he was slowing down and starting to eat more punches, Ali was feeding off the crowd's energy, and he had realized that Ali was nowhere near as faded as he'd convinced himself. I think it was the 5th he tried to rally in, but in the 6th, 7th and 8th he was offering nothing. By the midpoint of the fight Foreman had punched himself out, had no plan B, was completely discouraged, and it was clear that there was only going to be one winner.

Once Ali weathered the storm, Foreman more or less accepted defeat. Part of that was due to Ali's tactic of treating him like an overgrown child, to the extent of telling him "you've been hearing about how bad I am since you were in diapers. Now you must face me, your master!" (or similar words) at the staredown. Foreman played into Ali's hands, he demonstrated mental weakness.

I will never claim that Vitali's comp is anything other than terrible by ATG standards. However, he fights everyone he can, and the manner in which he beats these mediocre-to-average fighters is utterly dominant, always. In his entire career, how many fighters have managed to win two clear rounds against Vitali? That has to count for something, because all kinds of nobodies have KDed and/or have taken three, four, five rounds against undefeated versions of top-10 ATGs. Just not against Vitali, ever.

Obviously it would be better for him if he did have that stoppage win over a prime Frazier or Liston, but his complete and total dominance of subpar opposition (including up to an age where most ATGs are completely shot) combined with physical attributes unique in the division's history means that head to head, Vitali is an easy fight for nobody regardless of their style, and he certainly deserves consideration as being more than competitive with the likes of Frazier, Foreman, Marciano etc. Most of whom he is half a foot taller than, as well as outweighing by 40-50 pounds even when in peak condition.

:hat

 

He could crack the 16-20 region, that was very quickly rustled up. Where do you feel he should be in comparison to Schmeling? I feel I need to find a balance between their rankings to properly rank Charles.

The problem I have is finding that balance between the quality of Schmeling's win over Louis + the likes of Sharkey and Stribling, compared to Charles' win + Walcott, Oma, Ray etc.

 

Vitali's only wins over top 10 ranked contenders are Sanders and the 3 that he beat since his comeback in Arreola, Peter and Gomez. Johnson wasn't top 10 when Vitali fought him, Hide wasn't even top 10 even as a belt-holder. Of course Lewis and Byrd were top 10, and he lost both times.