Wake up: V. Klit is a solid top-10 ATG!

I didn't see the start of the discussion, so I thought we were talking taking into account all things; resumé, accomplishment, longevity, adversity, any criteria you might make in accounting for his all-time greatness, so I don't really know what we are doing discussing this if we both agree he isn't top 10. Out of curiosity, what sort of range do you have him in?

Well in regards to his overall career, Louis had a far greater length of longevity, he had to face far greater adversity and he has much better quality wins. Schmeling, Walcott - two top 20 ATG heavyweights for a start. Vitali the point I was making has not dominated an era.

Louis era may not have been that great, but he thoroughly cleaned it out for years and mixed in some top wins aswell. He beat all the best around. The point is Vitali hasn't done that. Since he hit the world scene in '99, he hasn't beaten the likes of Lewis to add a great name to his resumé.

He hasn't beaten any of the likes of Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd, Holyfield, Tyson - all the top contenders around at the time. There's more aswell. His resumé is extremely poor not just overall, but in conjunction to his actual era. Wlad is in the same position that he's in a relatively poor era, but his resumé is still far superior to Vitali's imo.

Well I disagree that the 'Spinks is more of an ATG' notion for a start, but anyway. To borrow the old cliché, styles make fights. Stylistically, Spinks was absolutely in the firing-line of Tyson and he knew it himself.

Stylistically, Conn matched up far better with Louis. I feel Conn was a better boxer overall than Spinks, and more equipped to deal with his respective fight, whereas I feel Spinks had to rely more on his punching power and he in a position where he was facing an ATG big punching, technically skilled swamer in his prime.

Louis obviously was not a swarmer. Conn had more ample opportunity to box Louis and to use his advantages to the best of his ability, he was afforded time to box with Louis because of Louis' style.

To say 'by today's rules Louis lost a wide UD' is a ridiculous statement. How can you be sure the fight would have went the same way over 12 than 15? Do you not think Louis would have altered his gameplan? He knew he had the championship rounds left to make a difference, you think he wouldn't have stepped up later over 12? What a terrible statement.

And yes, I can see Conn winning a 30 stretch against Vitali. I think you are severely under-rating a tremendously talented and intelligent boxer, even if he was a light-heavy.

Who is marking him down for stopping guys later rather than early? The sentiment of marking an early knockout as more impressive than a long domination and cumulative stoppage is flawed and susceptible to much interpretation.

I have said time and again that it is not Vitali's style, particular nowadays. His stoppages are systematic and as a result of breaking his opponent down, I never expected him to stop Sosnowski before about round 8/9.

But plenty of people have let guys off the hook, Louis was a great finisher when he wanted to be, Simon had great survival instincts and managed to hold on often. By the same token, should I mark Vitali down for not finishing Kevin Johnson? A guy who practically layed around on the ropes for 12 rounds not even punching back? No.

I am not here to talk about individual opponents. Louis' resumé is far superior to Vitali's without the need of Abe Simon. Schmeling, Walcott, Max Baer, Sharkey (albeit not primed at all), Braddock, Buddy Baer, Carnera, Savold (albeit not primed aswell), Farr. Even the light-heavies that he fought in the likes of Conn and Henry-Lewis are amongst the greatest in their respective division, and seeing as someone like Tyson gets credit for the Spinks win.

Louis also dominated his era. Albeit his era overall may not have been amongst the greatest, despite all the names he managed to beat, yes he did fight a lot of contenders who may have struggled in stronger era's, just like today's. The difference? Louis dominated his era. I am not talking about how many rounds he may or may not have lost over his career, who cares?

I am talking about 12 years and 25 defences are champion, I am talking about beating all of the best contenders and names around. Has Vitali done that? No. Right now, he is sharing an era with his brother, he's merely a beltholder at the moment, albeit a secure one but a beltholder none the less. And despite the poor era, his resumé is poor even in conjunction to that era. It wouldn't be all that great if he was beating all the best names around but he's not.

Another ridiculous statement. Took Tua's punches so can take Louis. For starters, I think a lot would say that Louis hit harder than Tua. Not only that, he's a far, far, far, far better overall puncher than Tua. He has greater variety, greater speed, greater accuracy, greater overall composite punching skills that allow him to switch up and throw and land combinations Tua could only dream about.

Byrd is not as skillful as Billy Conn, not by a long shot. For a heavy he displayed some good defensive skills in particularly, but Conn is more skillful and quicker of hand and foot than Byrd and that makes a big difference. You seem to be acting like this was Louis' best performance aswelll. Newsflash, he has been far better than that. So Byrd beats Louis over 12 rounds? Okay. Whatever.

Why hasn't he taken on all comers? As I've mentioned several times, his resumé in poor even in conjunction with his era. Wlad has a far better resumé and he's still suffering from being in the same relatively poor era, but at least he's taken on a lot of ring top 10 contenders. He's also unified and become the champ, even when he's got his brother stealing some of the limelight.

 

I was referring to that, the point is you said Zaire to Ali is like Germany to Klitschko. I said that I wasn't aware that Ali fought out of Zaire numerous times throughout his career and practically adopted it as a homeland.

I'm not comparing 32 year olds. I am saying at a respective time in their career. Vitali at 32 had far more left than even Ali at 32 in my opinion, I feel he was far less attached to his prime. I am talking about - whatever stage it may be in Vitali's career - being evidently past his prime and beating a guy like a prime Foreman, a prime ATG heavyweight. When has Vitali faced any sort of adversity like that? When has he shown anything to compare to that?

Styles again. No swarming heavyweight beats Foreman, he had a ridiculous advantage in size, presence and physical strength over all of them. Probably in power aswell.

I do not think Vitali beats a FOTC version of Frazier. What do you see him doing differently to Ali? Ali was close to his prime but admittedly even as a big, big Frazier fan, his foot speed had gone a bit. That proved vital. Vitali is far slower than any version of Vitali. And his timing is inferior. How do you see Vitali sticking and moving in a way Ali couldn't?

Why so? Ali more not have had a good defensive guard to rely on, but his foot speed was far superior to Vitali's even if it had slowed by then. I would argue because of his superior footspeed, reach, jab and timing, Ali had a far greater chance of keeping his range against Frazier than Vitali. And that failed.

I would like to know how you think Vitali deals with Frazier's head movement and come-forward style. Do you think Vitali can continue to land his jab and keep Frazier at bay the whole time? Do you think he has the foot speed and sense of timing to do so? Do you think he can automatically just tie up Frazier everytime Joe gets inside? Bare in mind that Frazier is a difficult target for him and the way in which Vitali was clumisly holding onto even a guy his own size in Lewis at times?

Jerry Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Machen, Doug Jones, Ellis? None of these guys ringing a bell? Showing your lack of knowledge once again, Frazier's resumé is not bad. And as much as you would like to remove the Ali win to make your point, it's still there. Frazier beat a near prime version of the greatest heavyweight of all-time, and had in the end a trilogy that on different nights could have gone either way. What has Vitali done to mark his greatness? Only dropped 1/2 rounds out of 9+ against C- level opponents? Good job.

Frazier's resumé is far superior to Vitali's even without the Ali win. You are utterly clueless and I have no more to say on this point. Go and research the likes of Quarry, Ellis, etc. And then tell me how they stack up with the likes of Sam Peter, Herbie Hide and Obed Sullivan.

Why are we removing the Ali fights? You are not making sense, you can't just remove certain fights to try and downgrade a fighter and make a point. They are there, deal with it.

If nobody thought he could compete, why was opinion relatively split? If there was nothing to suggest he could have beaten Ali, why wasn't he a massive, massive underdog? This again I feel is stemming from your lack of knowledge on the '70's era and the fighters he beat elsewhere.

YOU would look at his record and say 'he went life and death with some nobodies' because you don't appear to have seen much of Frazier, nor do you appear to have much knowledge on who this supposed 'nobodies' are. I look at the Foreman fight and see a slightly past prime Frazier who got destroyed by a guy stylistically he was no match with. I say 'Put a slightly past his best version of Tyson or Marciano in there with Foreman of '73 and exactly the same thing happens'.

 

If you feel the need to discuss any of those points Haggis, particularly on why you feel Frazier's resumé apart from Ali is so bad and how he beat a bunch of 'nobodies' feel free, otherwise I am happy to leave the discussion whenever.

 

I'd like to see that skillful lard arse get down to 230lbs if he's going to fight Vitali, otherwise he's just shooting himself in the foot.
Sadly he's just too undisciplined to get into anything resembling good shape now he's professional.

 

Great to see someone defending Frazier, it seems like he gets sold short nowadays. :good

 

Just the thought of either Klit girl being seriously considered in the top 10 ATG makes me go;

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahaha

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahaha

and never watch HW boxing again since it is FIXED!

I have to give another round of;

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahaha

Because if the Russian makes the ATG list, next they'll be placing George W. Bush as the nation's most brightest President.:verysad

 

Rubbish about Lewis.

Lewis was just about to turn 38 and looked soft and on the decline.

Regardless of your scorecard, the judges only had VK up by 2 rounds and as the fight was turning it wouldnt have been out of the question for Lewis to claw those back had the fight carried on.

The replays clearly show the cuts being caused by punches.

Lots of fighters have cornrows, they are not a problem. Can you name any other fighters Lewis has cut in similar fashion? I've seen every fight of his and can't recall any.

Wlad has a better resume than Vitali yet has been beaten by some awful fighters. Neither have beat anyone that will make the hall of fame nevermind an ATG.
That does not make them ATGs by any stretch.

There is the argument they cleaned up a terrible division much like Tyson but Tyson destroyed his opponents. The K brothers are too safety conscious to get stuck in.

Unfortunately for the Klitschkos, this generation of HWs look sooooooo bad..... because they aaaaaare!

 

Just got to highlight this as a superb post.

 

:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

yikes:yikes

Hmmm, is that quote of the week worthy I wonder....

 

:rofl:twisted::rofl:twisted::roflatsch
Ban worthy.

 

Best post of the thread.

Right now, of the ten top heavies out there, Vitali has FOUGHT ONE.

Now he's better than Joe Louis, who beat the number 2 guy like 15 times??


This doesn't make sense on ANY level.

Keith

 

vitali could beat every guy on that list..