Was 64-67 Ali really better than his early 70s counterpart?

In my own opinion, I believe that the Muhammad Ali from 1964-1967, his first title reign was better. Maybe his competition was not as stellar as his 1970's competition but truthfully, Ali was a much more vulnerable fighter in the 1970's way too much drama for my taste. Ali could dance and move for 15 rounds straight if need be, you never saw him lay on the ropes and continually get pounded as he did against Joe Frazier in 1971's FOTC or get his jaw broken by Ken Norton in March 1973 and look like a blimp. The Ali from 1964-1967 had timing, reflexes, speed, footwork, stamina and confidence. As champion Ali never hit the canvas, the first Cooper fight took place in June 1963, in the second Cooper bout, Ali stopped Cooper by TKO 6 on May 21 1966, no knockdowns. Ali could have defeated his 1970's opponents during his first tittle reign, he would have decisioned both Frazier and Norton. And Yank Durham would not allow Frazier to fight Ali in 1967, that is why Frazier did not enter the 1967 WBA Tournament in defiance. And please no mention of Fury, Klitchko's Lewis or any of the current crop of heavyweights, this thread pertains to Ali from 1964-1967 against 1970's opposition. I promise that we won't forget those current or past fighters from 10-15 years ago. Cross my heart.

 

@Seamus - Although you seem to favor incrementalism in promulgating your take on boxing history, I know you've expressed this view in the past. Curious whether you'd be willing to spell it out at length here.

 

I still think Frazier & Norton give him issues but Ali in mid to late 60s was at his absolute peak, no professional athlete is ever going to be the same after a 3 year lay off. I believe the 2nd Norton fight was somewhat reminiscent of a 60s version of Ali, and actually one of his few performances in the 70s that looked like a 60s version of Ali. He used his footwork for the entire 12 rounds and looked sharp and fit.

 

A bit of both.
1. It is clear he ran into much better opposition overall. Only great boxers he faced in the 60s were Patterson and Liston, neither of which was at their best. Liston was old and unprepared, and Patterson had an injured back.
2. Technique wise, 60s Ali was no better than early 70s Ali. In fact, I'd go even further and say 70s Ali was more versatile as a boxer and knew how to fight dirty.
Speed was almost the same, but 60s Ali had better stamina and therefore footwork.

 

Or maybe he’d aged, and had three years shaved off his prime?

 

White Bomber, A really good post, good assessment.

 

Me too, White Bombers post was very truthful.

 

Frazier would have been a tough out for any iteration of Ali, Norton not so much, because he wasn't quite the crowder. It's quite clear Ali didn't have the same physical gifts post -exile as he did pre-exile. Athletes aren't like wine. Once they mature they don't get better with age. The laws of physiology are immutable.

 

I'm going to have to go against type and agree with @swagdelfadeel. At least mostly.

60s Ali looks better, even though his competition doesn't measure up to the 70s guys. I agree that we shouldn't read 70s Ali's cunning back into 60s Ali, or mash the versions together like some people do with Old and Young Foreman. But I think 60s Ali's superior athleticism trumps 70s Ali's extra tricks.

That said: the idea that 70s Ali was better is interesting, and I'd like to see it explored. The arguments put forward aren't absurd on their face.

 

Yes, much better. 64-67 Ali was the fastest moving heavyweight in history, I believe Jimmy Jacobs said Ali's jab was faster than SRR's after he analyzed the footage. He did everything his 70s counterpart did in a better, faster and more efficient way. You can argue that 70s Ali was smarter and a better pure boxer, but he didn't have that insane athleticism he did in the 60s.

 

Nah, The 1970's version lacked stamina, footwork, timing and reflexes, the only thing retained was the speed. The legs are the first thing to go on a fighter, his stamina or lack thereof allowed Joe Frazier to punch him around the ring in FOTC in March 1971, also Ali only had 18 rounds of ring combat in 43 months, Ali did not spar or workout during his exile, his body looked terrible, pure fat, he no longer liked to visit the gym. The 1970's version suffered a broken jaw in March 1973, the 1974 started to bore us with his constant use of the Rope A Dope after Zaire. Ali started to have controversial victories. If I wanted more Drama, I could have indulged in those corny Christmas Hallmark movies.

 

Oh no ! They have to invade our conversations when we are discussing Ali of the 1960's against 1970's competition.