Was 64-67 Ali really better than his early 70s counterpart?

Walcott has a tendency to just Waltz in like he owns the place.

 

But Lewis? We never can stick to our threads, it appears to always get off track. I think many are afraid that we are going to forget about Lewis, the Klitchko's, when I promised that we would not forget about them. I promised, those guys are too recent.

 

Who's this Lewis guy you're talking about, and what is a "Klitschko"?

 

Right, Tell that to the other posters buddy so we won't forget about them, Syringe Made Giants. Ha Ha

 

Athletes become better at their craft with experience but there comes a time in every athlete's career when all the experience he or she can garner can not compensate for what age has taken away. Old fighters don't paint great canvases, they become part of them.

 

Well put, and so true. Sometimes people get caught up in their time, seeing those same fighter and getting caught up in all that drama. The 1960's Ali was better.

 

I agree with a caveat. His greatest triumphs came after his otherworldly athleticism had diminished.

 

At his best in the 60s, but it was not zero sum, as he filled out and became more durable in the 70s.

 

But for the fans to enjoy and for Ali to be disabled until his death in 2016, money does not mean a single thing if your physical health is damaged. In the 1960's Ali did not get bashed in the head like he did in the 1970's too much drama for my taste, I admire skill, not drama. The Soap Operas were full of that stuff.

 

1964-67 was the best version of Ali without a doubt.

 

My Grandfather told me once that, on January 20th, 1970, when he sat directly behind Muhammad Ali in the Stanley Theater in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and watched The Muhammad Ali vs. Rocky Marciano Computer fight, that he already detected a very slight tremor in Muhammad Ali's left hand when he rested it in his lap. Granddad's friend, who sat next to Granddad, said he also noticed it. Does that mean that the Parkinson's had already begun. I do not know and neither did Granddad, but it is never-the-less interesting.

Personally, from films, I see a big difference between 1963-1967 Muhammad Ali and any iteration of him from 1970 on. No doubt he gained more experience in his second career and that helped him. But I see no way where I could even imagine the post 1970 version of Muhammad Ali beating his 1963-1967 self in a boxing match, nor could I imagine him gaining a draw.

 

it's a toss up for me, overall I think what he lost after his exile was of more magnitude than what he gained, he spent time with Cus, packed on a little weight, and learned to "sit down" on his punches, but there was obviously footwork/foot speed that he was never going to get back

competition wise, Patterson performed better against him pre-exile than in their second fight, he beat Liston pre-exile, and Foreman after, I think that very early on if he had bulked up a tiny bit but not enough to lose any speed like maybe 8lbs more total muscle mass and had Cus' mentorship back then would be the absolute best version of Ali

without his footwork/foot speed Liston probably would have given him a lot more trouble, without his arguably more strategic/applied ring IQ and slight increase in weight/power later on he might not have been able to handle Foreman the way he did

it's interesting that Tyson also had an interruption during what could be argued as his prime, and many bring up the hypothetical of what if Cus was around farther into Tyson's future, whereas with Ali it's like what if Cus was around farther back in his career, for example Cus for sure would have drilled better defense into young Ali

 

It is difficult to answer this question objectively, but I will try. Muhammad Ali of the 70s lost in ALMOST every physical attribute to Ali of the 60s. Only the punching power, I think, has increased by a shade (which is logical, it was heavier in the 70s). Ali of the 70s lost some of his confidence, but gained experience, and partly became a dirtier boxer. Ali of the 60's never needed to press Joe Frazier's neck and head down as part of his gameplan, he had no need to. Ali of the 60's would not go down after 14 rounds as he rejoices in a stoppage victory (better stamina in the 60's). He lost less on handspeed and more on footwork. Ali of the 60s would have had no need for "rope-a-dope", timing and reflexes would have made up for it. But in the 70s he faced better opposition; they don't call the 70s the golden era for nothing.

 

Good post,Marvelous. But I don't think that Cus and Muhammad would have gone well together in a long term working relationship. D'Amato had to be THE BOSS of his fighters and that was n't what Muhammad was into. Angelo Dundee was always happy to be more of a background type which was what a maverick such as Muhammad wanted.

 

I agree with everything you posted except one little fact: Ali was not in the tournament. The tournament was done to find a replacement champion by the WBA, Ali having been deposed as champion by them. So I don't think Durham not wanting Frazier to fight Ali had no bearing in their decision not to enter the tournament.