Was 64-67 Ali really better than his early 70s counterpart?

Both. The competition was far better in the 1970s and a fighter that relied so much on his legs and reflexes was always going to be hit more as he approached his 30s, irrespective of any hiatus. And the idea that prime Ali was virtually impossible to hit was never true anyway, he was prepared to plant his feet and trade blows in his pomp too, albeit not as often. Just like Roy Jones was never going to be as good as B-Hop, when his reflexes faded (despite being superior in their primes) only Roy didn’t have Ali’s excellent chin, so started to embarrass himself, and the slower, more durable Ali’s ability to take a punch was helped by the fact he was more stationary, so therefore could anticipate the blows more.

 

Both would have given any version of Ali trouble. In fact, I’ve said this before but if Ali hadn’t gotten a ban, I think Frazier would have taken his title around 1969 in an upset win (with Ali regaining the title in a rematch). On the oft-quoted Ali-Norton 2 performance, I agree, he looks sharp but it’s still a razor thing decision that would not be a robbery had Kenny been given the nod. Ali does have a good first half of the fight and people use this as a barometer that at his best, the next six rounds would be similar…maybe, but even in those 6 rounds, he barely outlands Norton overall and Kenny landed far more power shots.

 

I didn't mean like swap trainers, but instead of hanging around Cus during his exile if Cus was around in roughly the same capacity earlier in the 60's

 

It's a fair question as they became two different fighters .. I believe the 66 - 67 Ali was still maturing but was physically the best version of Ali since among his many great natural gifts, the standout was his speed and movement ... he was never a great technical fighter .. the speed of hands and feet, the reflexes were his exceptional gift and allowed him to excel without ever developing more traditional world class skills .. the early seventies Ali may and I say may have been a bit stronger but he never had the same speed and it showed in the first Quarry fight by the second round, was made obvious in the Bonavena fight and surely in the first Frazier fight .. Ali's size ( for the time) his strength, his remaining hand speed , his heart , his chin and his brain still made him the best off an era but not what he had been ... it's interesting to note that we never saw the best Dempsey based on inactivity , possibly Louis because of WW2 and Ali because of his exile ...

 

2 things worth mentioning:
First of all, we are only referring to early 70s Ali, say until 74, not past that point.
Second, we said he was better at certain things and at the same time,other attributes of his were diminished.
It's also worth mentioning that the opposition one faces can make him look better or worse.

 

His competition was way more impressive in the 70's, he was the first generation of his type of lateral moving evolution, a tier above Liston and Williams.

Though unpopular, I do believe a Ali from the Norton 2 fight would be very good to use in h2h matchups, as he had experience against elite competition like Norton and Frazier. 60's Ali may be more athletic and light but I think he's too inexperienced.

 

Ali fought three guys in 1972 - Patterson, Chuvalo and Quarry - who he fought previously.

To me, Patterson, Chuvalo and Quarry all were more competitive against Ali in 1972 when they were all older (Patterson was 37, Chuvalo was 34, Quarry 27) than they were against Ali when they were younger (first fight with Ali, Floyd was 30, Chuvalo was 28, Quarry was 25).

And Patterson, Chuvalo and Quarry were all better fighters earlier. 1972 was pretty much the end of the line for both Patterson and Chuvalo. And 1973 was probably Quarry's last good year.

You can't look at Ali in 1965 or 1966 or even 1970, and say he was a better all around fighter in the early to mid 70s.

 

Ali came back without the stamina and legs that went a long way in separating him from the rest of the field.

In the 70s Ali had to rely so much more on his chin and overall resilience (separate from actual skill). I think those qualities (chin and resilience) were there in potential in the 60s but they simply were not demanded to any high degree.

Ali had already begun varying his weight in the 60s - somewhat purposed for the opponent at hand.

He came in at 214 1/2 lbs for Chuvalo - a first career high in terms of weight I believe.

Imo, while he sacrificed a bit of movement at that weight, he was punching harder with the extra weight and planting his feet more. But it was Chuvalo, a near impossible man to get out of there but George was smarting from and backed up by a number of Ali’s heavy handed salvos.

I think that’s the weight and type of fight Ali would’ve brought to the table against Frazier had they fought in the late 1960s.

But then again, who knows? - Ali might’ve opted for lighter weight for extreme mobility as he did in the Liston rematch.

In fact, Chuvalo presents as an ideal reference point for Ali’s deteriorations - their second fight being that much harder and more competitive than their first fight. The all important legs and stamina were no longer what they used to be.

Chuvalo himself said that Ali wasn’t the same fighter - meaning he was a lesser fighter in the rematch than he was in the 1960s - and, imo, George himself was a bit lesser than himself also.

However, even in his prime, George never stood to lose as much Ali could and would likely lose in potential at some point - an obvious forecast given the sublime nature of Ali’s prime speed, mobility and inexhaustible stamina.

 

Patterson said the same.

 

To be fair, in the case of Dempsey it was entirely his fault.

 

Patterson actually said the same thing regarding Ali not being the same.

 

Peak 60s Ali had 7 years of pro experience and an extensive amateur career prior to that. I don’t think he was inexperienced at all.

 

Veteran Zora Folley spoke very highly of Ali's ring savvy after their fight. He said that Ali fought like he had had 100 fights, not 29.

As for putting on mass, Ali wasn't that much bigger for most of his big fights in the early 70's. With the exception of Manilla, he was 212-217 lbs. A bit bigger than his 60's range, where he probably averaged some 5 lbs lower, but he looked a bit looser as well.

The 225 lbs Ali of the early to mid 70's, that still had a pretty good muscle tone, was probably him at his strongest, though. This was the Ali of Manilla and against Lyle, but also against for example Ellis and MacFoster. But in the late 70's he just looked fat and out of shape at 220+.

 

No, no. mid 60s Ali was far better than early 70s Ali. When Ali came back in the 70s he was clearly a different fighter, slower, more hittable, with stamina issues. mid 60s Ali was an unstoppable machine. He was simply unbeatable. In the early 70s he was very beatable. The 3 years away from the sport took its toll. He was not the same fighter when he came back. Still great, but a notch lower.

IMHO Mid 60s Ali wouldn't have lost to the Frazier who beat him the first time, he wouldn't have been knocked down. Yes Cooper knocked him down 1963, but that was before the 64-67 time frame posed in this topic.

 

No, his legs disappeared in his biggest fights in the early 70s because the way he used them weren’t conducive to winning.- Ali was at his best in the 70s to me- just a smarter fighter.