Was 64-67 Ali really better than his early 70s counterpart?

I said myself that his stamina was not as good as before, but you're taking things to the extreme, it's not like it was diminished by 50%.
Also, 60s Ali was beatable too.
I favour at least 5 ATG's to beat him.

 

Not diminished by 50%, maybe by 10%-20%. That's a lot though in boxing. Punch speed was pretty comparable, but reaction time and movement speed had been diminished. So he was easier to hit, and would become less mobile late in fights, would lay on the ropes, etc.

I agree about the competition being better in the 1970s. Though Doug Jones was a damn good fighter who he barely beat, but that was earlier. After he beat Sonny Liston in Miami Beach, the confidence he gained form that win made him practically unbeatable in my opinion.

That's not to say that maybe the absolute best of the best ATGs could have beaten him. But if not unbeatable, pretty close to it. He was so difficult stylistically, with the speed, the footwork, the jab, he could dance all night and just jab, then time you with rights, or clinch when you got inside. How do you outbox and decision 64-67 Ali. It's damn near impossible. Also very difficult to hit clean, or hurt, because he was so elusive. When he was dropped by Cooper, that had a lot to do because he took Cooper lightly. If he went up against someone who he knew was a threat, like Liston, or Frazier or Foreman, he would be on his game and wouldn't get caught like he did against Cooper.

 

Definitely agree that Frazier and Norton would have given even the prime incarnation of Muhammad problems - the second bouts with both men is indicative of what would have occured albeit with more daylight between them on the scorecards. Everytime I've watched it,I score that second Norton fight to Muhammad by one round and I also have no problem if anyone sees it as a Norton victory. It's always been one of my favourite Ali seventies bouts. The best of their trilogy,imo. For the record,as much as a big Ali fan as I am,I see Norton as the victor in the third fight between them by three points. That one,in contrast to the second,was not the most exciting to watch.

 

Shay, Your grandfather was quite a man, much respect to him. Your Grandfather sure knew his boxing, I truly believe some illnesses are dormant in a human body much the way that the Shingles Virus is if you had Chickenpox as a child. The Parkinson's for all we know was dormant and did not fully manifest itself until Muhammad Ali was much older and had suffered punishment in the 1970's. In the first title reign from 1964-1967, Ali hardly ever got hit solidly, not because the competition was inferior but because he possessed all of his physical attributes, speed, reflexes, stamina, footwork, and timing. By the 1970's only the speed was present, his legs started to fail him, the first things to go on a fighter are his legs. Sometimes his footwork was there, then other times his legs failed him. This continuation of the Rope A Dope began to be boring and tedious post Zaire, his opponents would just back off, just staring at his antics, it caused Ali more neurological damage than good.

 

70s Ali to me seemed even more determined. Mentally tougher even maybe if that was possible.

 

Ali would’ve very very likely developed Parkinson’s even if he’d never set foot in a boxing gym. Those punches to the head exacerbated the symptoms 10 times worse though.

 

You will never convince me that Aii didn't f---k around, i.e. play with Cooper in their first fight and found out.

 

Muhammad Ali did not take Henry Cooper very seriously on June 18 1963, Ali was looking past Cooper towards champion Sonny Liston who had an upcoming rematch with ex champion Floyd Patterson on July 22 1963 in Las Vegas, Nevada. Ali toyed with Cooper early until he got caught with that sledgehammer left hook from Henry in round 4. It is kind of like not studying for a test in school, being overconfident in your studies. Ali won the bout with some controversy clouding his victory. The second time around on May 21 1966, Ali returned as champion, the fight was tedious at first until Ali opened a huge gash over Cooper's eyebrow with a chopping right hand during an exchange, bringing a torrent of Cooper's blood on the both of them, referee George Smith ended the bout in round 6. No knockdown in this fight.

 

Honestly, I know it's his best performance in his second career, but Ali's movement looks slightly less coordinated even in Norton 2. Just a little "off," even accounting for no longer being as young.

You wouldn't notice unless you'd seen the earlier version.

 

Agreed cross trainer, the Muhammad Ali from 1964-1967 has better reflexes, timing, with his great footwork.

 

As a follow-up, @swagdelfadeel, this is why I prefer the Ali from as early as possible after his layoff to later versions. I think the Parkinson's was progressing throughout, and the earlier the version of Ali is, the better. (Plus, I assume that the layoff was a net positive for his brain health, at least compared to what he was doing after his career resumed.)

Even if FOTC wasn't optimal athletically, I prefer conditioning issues to slowly increasing neurological ones.

 

Do you think he would've gotten Parkinson's even if he'd never boxed? Parkinson's imo is something you either get or you don't, influenced by genes and/or environmental factors. I think his was hereditary as other family members of his had Parkinson's as well including his brother, who did not have an extensive career at all.

 

I don't know, since I'm not a doctor. I doubt boxing helped.

The combo of getting hit and Parkinson's is probably hard to disentangle.

 

On a related point:

It does make me wonder whether 67 Ali would've been close to the best we saw even without the exile.

We know, more or less, what 70s Ali would have looked like, adjusting for the effects of conditioning early on. And from 67-69, Ali probably still would've been dealing with the very slow Parkinson's creep. Now with the addition that he was taking punches, too.

If Ali didn't have medical issues, we could extrapolate peak Ali in 68 or 69. But he may have been developing them in nascent form during his layoff; certainly he looks a little less coordinated by Norton 2. He may have always been destined to get sabotaged before he hit what should've been an absolute peak -- by biology rather than Uncle Sam.