Was Ali a Klitschko level clincher?

It's not so much that Ali was defensible in his clinching so much as he wasn't nearly so bad in this regard as Wlad. Ali's clinching was more of a spoiling tactic to lessen an opponent's effectiveness when they came into his wheelhouse. Fighters could work their way out of it, or win rounds working inside it. The worst that could be said of it was that it slowed the action down. Even then, an Ali fight was seldom boring. Ali Frazier II certainly wasn't, though yes, the clinching was excessive and should have been clamped down on by the ref.

But it paled in comparison to Wlad's clinching. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't even call what Wlad did clinching. It was more like a wrestling move designed to damage an opponent's back and wear out their legs, in some cases even to manhandle them into position to be hit with illegal blows (Povetkin fight). It was a much more physical move that he employed as a weapon rather than a form of defence. Whether he knocked more fighters out or not is irrelevant, and most Wlad fights in later years were almost unwatchable, regardless of whether they ended inside the distance or not.

 

I highly doubt you could find me an Ali fight with as much wrestling and manhandling as Wlad vs Povetkin. If you can, be my guest.

I can't think of too many fighters who got away with regularly jumping on their opponents' backs and trying to shove their faces into their knees. Wlad did that numerous times.

That's because he was a smaller man. Most of the fighters Wlad clinched were smaller men than himself: Mormeck, Povetkin, Leapai, Chambers, Haye. When he fought larger opponents like Wach his clinching miraculously dropped off.

 

You claim whether Wlad knocked out more fighters is irrelevant. Yet, your claim in Ali being less 'boring' and less 'unwatchable' is equally irrelevant, since it's TOTALLY subjective.

For me, I found Ali utterly unwatchable! The guy couldn't crack an egg to save his life. Him going 35 or so rounds against a Frazier (who would be a cruiser weight at most by modern standard) without being able to finish off this punch bag Frazier was utterly boring to see.

Yes, it is subjective and a matter of opinion but I enjoyed watching Wladimir Klitschko knocking his opponents out with sound punch techniques and mechanics, more than Ali throwing some flashy punches and using flashy moves inside the ring whilst showing nearly non-existent punching power in most of his fights.

Your subjective opinion on what kind of clinching is right and not right, is utterly irrelevant. Clinching is clinching! And it's illegal! Thus, anybody who clinches will be open to the same criticism from me. You trying to justify Ali's excessive clinching whilst being more critical of Wladimir Klitschko's clinching is you being a hypocrite with no uniform standard.

Ali was not only a clincher. He was also someone who used to also literally manipulate / play around with his opponent's head / back of their head. Head down pushing, grabbing behind the neck etc. These are all illegal clinches, compared to Wlad's clinches where he used to use naturally clinch and the referee used to split him and his opponents legally. So don't start lecturing me about how Ali was somehow a less guilty clincher than Wlad.

Furthermore, outside of Wlad's fight against Povetkin, if we look at both of their ENTIRE careers, you can't really make a case for Wlad clinching any more than Ali.

 

By modern standards, Ali would most likely be a cruiser weight (or maybe even a light heavyweight). Times have changed SIGNIFICANTLY!

 

You mean in his prime or in the 70's, not when a young kid right?
He could have cut to CW. Would he want to or need to?
I doubt it. He would want to beat the best in the world.
At his peak, before he gained a bit of weight in the 70's, he was right between 210-215. While being very lean.
No way he could have cut to LHW without losing significant muscle.
And never be as good as letting himself grow into his frame.

 

yet Ali was a huge HW back then.

 

The reason I brought it up is that you seemed to be mitigating Wlad's clinching by saying that, well at least he knocked his opponents out, as if that made him less of an offender. It has no positive bearing on how he abused the clinch since Wlad's always been a brutal knockout puncher, and I'd in fact argue that it makes his case worse, since the clinching was often an integral part of his gameplan of wearing down his opponent.

Who you find more entertaining is entirely up to you, of course.

Actually I don't agree that all clinching is the same, as I've said in previous posts in this thread. Is it all illegal? Yes, technically. But there are degrees of abuse, and for my money Wlad was far more flagrant a rule breaker than Ali because he systematised his clinching and fundamentally relied upon it to win fights.

My 'justification' of Ali's clinching wasn't to erase the fact. I freely admit he did clinch excessively in more than one bout, and in the second Frazier fight it prevented Frazier getting off his shots on the inside, but the worst that could be said of his clinch was that it stifled the action and gave his opponents a sore neck. He never wrestled and manhandled guys the way Wlad routinely did.

This is nonsense. Post-Steward Wlad never naturally clinched anyone. It was always with the intent to completely shut down their offence and/or lean his weight on them. What the hell is legal about jumping on an opponent's back and trying to drive their head into their groin? Get a grip. Garbage point.

I'm sure you can, but I can't be bothered to go back through Wlad's entire career just to do so.

 

Ali was a fat / flabby heavyweight (when he weighed above 200 pounds). Whilst he was an athletic cruiser weight / light heavyweight (when he weighed below 200 pounds).

Ali would be nothing special today. He'd just be another Bryant Jennings (or somewhere on that level). Ali's hype is a myth!

 

The only reason why I mentioned the point about Wladimir Klitschko clinching, whilst also knocking opponents out (unlike Ali) was in response to the others who claimed Ali's clinching was okay unlike Wladimir Klitshcko because Ali supposedly performed other entertaining stuff in addition (like showboating, flashy footwork, combination punching and etc). However, I've made it very clear that illegal moves are illegal moves and everyone performing illegal moves should be judged by the same standard. Entertainment value is not a justification!

I don't think Wlad was a 'brutal puncher'. Just that he had better fundamentals and punch technique than Ali. Ali also clinched and leaned on his opponents whilst wearing them down too but could never KO his opponents as consistently as Wladimir Klitschko did. Reason being that Ali's punch technique was horrible in comparison!

If we both agree that clinching is illegal, then that's all that matters from an OBJECTIVE standpoint (the only relevant standpoint),. Anything else is your subjective interpretation of what kind of clinching you deem to be worse or better = IRRELEVANT. Since for me, I could just as easily use mental gymnastics and nitpick reasons why Ali's clinching was even worse than Wladimir Klitschko's. Consider that Ali, on top of clinching excessively, also held behind his opponent's head, held and hit, rabbit punched, and did a bunch of other dirty moves. Whilst Wlad never rabbit punched or held and hit his opponents, anywhere near as much as Ali. Thus, both are to be blamed equally by me (from an objective standpoint).

Clinching is a natural human act. Which is why wrestling is arguably the oldest sport known to man. It's natural and instinctive for two people two clinch each other on the inside / close quarters. Which is why you see random Joe's grabbing each other by their clothing in street / pub fights. Boxing is no exception! Nor are boxers like Wladimir Klitschko and Muhammad Ali! I challenge you to find me a SINGLE boxer who has NEVER clinched in a boxing bout! Yes, Wladimir Klitschko (much like Ali) abused the rules and clinched excessively from time to time. However, that doesn't change the fact that he also used natural clinches in situations anybody would clinch in. Or, I should say any reasonably intelligent person would clinch in.

If someone is literally charging in with their head down whilst bending below the waist, then Wladimir Klitschko (or any other boxer for that matter), has the right to clinch them. It's common sense! Clinching may be illegal. But so is bending below the waist and charging in with the head. In such a situation, the boxer bending below the waist and charging in with his head is initiating the clinch. All I care about is an even playing field! As long as both parties have a level playing field, then that's all that matters from an objective fairness standpoint.

 

Is that what the Vietnamese used say?

 

this

 

Ali never weighed under 200lbs after the age of 20 years old so where’s the fat between 1962-1966 when he was fighting. even in comeback fights when weighing between 215- 226 I wouldn’t say he was fat. What would be interesting to know is what Joshua weighed aged 20 years old before the juice up and dyllian Whyte before getting fat, at aged 20 years old that is, I would be surprised if it was much over 205lbs Alis weight at 20 years when his body was not developed fully , Stop trying to knock the greatest you can’t lol.

 

Ali was as flabby as one could get, when he weighed at a respectable weight today for a heavyweight. Only as a cruiser weight was he not fat and had a slim / athletic physique.

There's an INSANE difference in physique between an Ali who weighed above 220 pounds, to a Bryant Jennings weighing 220+ pounds. Bryant Jennings is a physical specimen with almost no extra body fat and with mostly muscles. Whilst Ali had the physique of a typical clown at the same weight.

Heck, even if we are generous to Ali and take the Ali from his fight against Foreman when he weighed below 220 pounds (216 pounds), and then compare his physique to Bryant Jenning's physique against Wladimir Klitschko when Jennings weighed 226 pounds. A 10 pound heavier Bryant Jennings was still in better, more athletic shape, with less body fat and had more defined muscles than Ali. That should tell you just how fraudulent and overrated past era boxers like Ali were. A lighter Ali was still fatter than a heavier Bryant Jennings! Pathetic this so called 'greatest'!

Here are the pictures:

Jennings: https://commdiginews-wpengine.netdn...loads/2015/04/Klitschko-Jennings-HBO3-800.jpg

Ali: http://wallstreetnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/wsnpic2-4.jpg

And before you continue propagating this nonsense about steroids and performance enhancing drugs, keep in mind that steroids and performance enhancing drugs were also available in Ali's time too. Heck, they were available since 1940. So that excuse won't work for you either!

 

don’t think either were flabby, maybe steroids were available but not as widely used, but neither of them are cruisers Ali or Bryant, so stop trying to make one of greatest Heavyweights ever into one, no one wants to hear bull just arguments has to who was best in prime or as this thread suggests who is a bigger clincher, not just excuses to try and make Ali in a different weight class so you can try and get him out of the heavyweight argument . or try and make people think he fought under 200lb all his career so he would have no chance against heavies that aren’t even in his class like Bryant that’s mugs talk lol ps physique s don’t make fighters necessarily just ask dyllian Whyte.

 

The thing is Ali just wasn't as effective at doing it because W Kiltschko was a stronger man (Ali's strength is understimated too tbf)