Was Ali really still a great fighter when he beat Earnie Shavers?

White Bomber makes things up in his head then convinces himself that's what he saw while watching the fight. If something even remotely resembles what he believes happened he'll milk that out. Confirmation bias.

 

Shavers legs were jelly and the only thing keeping him up was the ropes and pure will power. He always looks exactly the same when badly hurt, his body language is the same in the Cobb, Lyle, and Holmes fights.

An even round? You cannot win a round say you fought evenly getting battered against the ropes. You also have to factor in Ali connected with more punches and shavers missed wildly quite a few times.

 

Well, there’s a few thing I’m not seeing the same way as WB.

Now I’m reading another claim that Shavers wasn’t nearly out. In that last 30 secs or so, Norton exclaimed that Shavers was hurt, the other commentator also observed that Earnie was just trying to survive the round.

Earnie was badly hurt and his legs were going on him. I’ll admit, after rewatching the round it was close until Ali stepped it up going on to badly stagger Shavers. IMO, that sealed the round for Ali but sure, pretty close round until then but Ali knew what he had to do and he did it.

As to the claim it was “sloppy” - jeez, it was the 15th round, plenty of energy already expended and pain suffered - viewed in its proper context it was a damn good round
and the audience/commentators certainly appreciated it thusly.

 

Yeah I'd like to see 70's fan NOT look sloppy in the 15th round. That was a strange criticism. Shavers had never gone 15, and Ali was past his prime fighting a devastating puncher. If anything it was impressive they gave the fans their money's worth.

 

It happened for a brief moment, but he came back to his normal self before the end of the round.

Shavers also landed quite a few punches and I just don't see this "battering" nearly as convincing as you do. It happened for like 10 seconds and the fight came back to normal.

 

Because the round was over and he was saved by the bell. Ali was thrashing him.

Shavers landed maybe 3-4 solid blows at best. A lot of the punches he landed, Ali rolled with them or flat out dodged.

The battering occured in the last 30 seconds not the whole round. Shavers curled up and his legs were gone, unable to respond.

 

These are the last 30 seconds of the fight:

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Sure, Ali hurt Shavers and these last seconds gave him this round. No, Shavers wasn't saved by the bell and even in the last seconds he responded with the last punch. He was hurt, but he wasn't on his way to be stopped in my opinion.

That's also basically the only thing Ali did in this round. I certainly wouldn't call that "trashing" or "battering".

 

Then you apparently missed the flurries and uppercuts Ali landed on Shavers (at least 3 uppercuts). Not sure if we're looking at the same footage. Ali also dodged or rolled with several of Shavers punches. To claim Ali didn't do anything until the last 30 seconds is flat out wrong. I can time stamp every significant punch and flurry he landed if you wish. He landed more than Shavers and Shavers missed wildly many times while getting countered.

The punching Shavers responded with completely missed. I mean, Wilder threw a punch back at Fury while being thrashed in the corner in fight #2 what's your point?

Shavers was held up by the ropes. Go to 0:19 he buckles and stumbles backwards. Shavers did this almost everytime he got hurt. Look here for comparison.

Go to 4:45

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Shavers had the exact same body language: covers up, bends at the waist leaning, stiff legs, is held up by the ropes.

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31:20

Same. Exact. Body language. By all means ignore what's right there on camera. Shavers almost always reacts the exact same way when badly hurt and tired. Ali would have stopped him with another 30 seconds.

I would also like to see you throwing with proper form after 15 rounds without being sloppy.

 

I've knocked up a thread for people to vote on the vital hotly debated 15th round.

 

Don’t you think you’re reaching a bit now? I counted roughly 15 punches thrown by Ali in the last 10 seconds, most of which appeared to land in some way shape or form - enough to clearly hurt and buckle Shavers WITHOUT Earnie returning a single punch, all of Ali’s said punches unanswered - that left “swipe” Earnie threw was hardly a punch - more a symbolic attempt to say to “I’m still hanging in there, I can move my arm, don’t stop the fight”. Earnie was badly hurt and incredibly fatigued by final bell, no question.

 

I counted 12 punches between Shavers last two punches thrown and no doubt he was hurt during that moment. That's what gave Ali the win in this round, no doubt about it. I don't think Shavers was in nearly as bad shape as you imply though.

 

Yes, he had these last 15 seconds when Shavers as hurt and he threw like 12 unanswered punches. I didn't miss it, but it does not equal to a one sided domination for the whole round.

Please, do that if you could.

He was hurt, no doubt about it. He sustained it though and looked more balanced at the end of the round. I think he would recover from that moment in the next round.

Tired yes - Shavers was exhausted in that round and he got hurt by Ali at the end. It doesn't mean that he got dominated though.

I am not a professional boxer, so what's your point? Are you implying that it's impossible to a HW not to look sloppy in the 15th round? I can find countless examples of boxers looking great in the last round. Ali and Shavers were both very tired and it's clear Ali was far from his best condition. I don't trash him for that, it's just an observation that they round was sloppy and it was far from masterclass on Ali's part.

 

I never said Ali dominated the whole round.

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1:00:33 Ali lands a jab then clinches, Shavers lands 2 sloppy body shots

1:00:38 Ali lands a left hook, Shavers trades landing a right cross

1:00:53 Ali blocks Shavers right with his shoulder

1:01:00 Shavers misses 2 punches and then throws 2 body shots that get blocked/parried

1:01:10 Shavers lands a glancing blow that doesn't have much on it.

1:01:15 Ali throws a flurry, lands one left uppercut, one left hook to the head, and a right hand while backed into the corner, Shavers throws some body punches and misses them all. Shavers also tries a left hook Ali ducks under.

1:01:27 Ali lands a right and Shavers lands a right in response. They clinch, Ali blocks a body punch from Shavers.

1:01:32 Shavers lands his first solid combination, a 1-2 rocking Ali. He attempts a follow up third punch which is blocked by Ali. Shavers then tries a weird long right hand lead which is blocked by Ali.

1:01:45 Shavers tries a right hand, Ali dodges it. Shavers tries another right and Ali uses head movement to dodge, Shavers lands a left hook to the body.

1:01:56 Shavers misses a right hand, lands a glancing jab. Ali sneaks a jab counter. Shavers misses some more punches and Ali counters with a 1-2.

1:02:00 Ali lands a solid left uppercut rocking Shavers. Shavers blocks Ali's follow up hook, then lands a right on Ali. Shavers tries another right but Ali smother blocks it and clinches.

1:02:10 Shavers completely misses six wild punches in a row as Ali parries or just dodges them.

1:02:28 Ali lands a right hand on Shavers.

1:02:36 Shavers once again swings wildly missing 3 punches, Ali lands a jab in between the sequence.

1:02:41 Ali lands a jab, then a 1-2, Shavers lands a glancing right hand that Ali rolls with.

1:02:47 Ali and Shavers exchange. Ali misses 2 punches, Shavers lands a powerful hook sending Ali reeling a few feet.

1:02:56 Shavers tries a body shot and an uppercut that are blocked by Ali.

1:03:00 for the remainder of the round it's all Ali. He lands at least 7 solid punches, Shavers lands one. Shavers is badly hurt, reeling, and held up by the ropes.

Ali 22/30 punches landed. 7/8 jabs, 15/22 power punches. Ali landed about 73% of his punches.

Shavers 14/42 total punches landed. 4/9 body shots landed. 1/1 jabs, 9/32 power punches. Shavers landed about 33% of his punches.

It gets worse if we break it down according to defense, ring generalship, technique, etc. Ali dominated in those areas. Shavers threw more but landed less, threw nearly a dozen wild hayemakers that missed completely, had several of his punches blocked or parried, and was countered multiple times. Ali was often in control like a matador controlling a bull. Outside of the 1-2 and the powerful hook, most of Shavers power punches were glancing blows or Ali rolled with them but I was being generous. I also gave credit to Shavers for multiple body shots that were very sloppy arm punches.

There is no way, shape, or form this was an "even" round. The fact Ali dominated the last 20 seconds was just the icing on top.

Shavers history when hurt shows that this would not be a safe bet. See the footage of his fights with Cobb, Lyle, and Holmes I posted. Ali wasn't a very powerful hitters but he was a good finisher and knew how to take out a hurt opponent. Shavers was gassed, had leaky, defense, and wobbly legs.

If someone is landing at will while you're against the ropes barely even defending yourself with your head snapping and your legs buckling, yes you're getting dominated. Some refs would have stopped the fight right then and there.

I know you're not a professional boxer, my point is it's extremely difficult to still have the energy to punch properly after 15 grueling rounds, especially when one guy is a devasting puncher and the other is an outside fighter known for making guys miss and countering. You cannot name a single HW in history who'd still be full of energy punching with proper technique in the 15th round fighting at this pace. Don't make me laugh and mention Frazier, Marciano, Norton, Tunney, Jefferies, etc, they would NOT be able to go to war with Shavers for 15 rounds without becoming exhausted.

Ali actually fought with very responsible defense and was in control most of the round. It wasn't his best performance, but he did a brilliant job controlling Shavers despite being tired and past his best.