Was Ali still great in Manilla?

This ... anyone who still thinks Ali was a feather-punching pretty boy needs to go back and watch this fight again. He proved that night that he's one of the toughest MFs ever to walk into a boxing ring.

 

Who said that quote? Hugh McIlvanney? Great quote.

IMO Ali may have been better many times but against that relentless version of Joe, in those conditions, having had the relaxed training camp he had and having seen the easy night he'd expected go tits up and become a war, to gut that out and find a way to win, he was never greater.

For me, greatness is not always about talent and winning. It's about showing something extraordinary. Ali and Frazier did that in spades. The collective greatness of their performances was possibly the highest of any heavyweight bout.

 

No current stars would ever agree to fight under the heat conditions of Manilla. It was one of the greatest athletic endurance feats ever displayed.

 

It was a great fight precisely because neither boxer was in their prime hence neither was "great" at that moment.

I don't think knowledgeable boxing fans would call either Mickey Ward or Gatti greats but their fights were great.

 

After the fight President Ferdinand Marcos told Ali that he won betting on Ali. Ali came back like a laser with “AS IF you need the money!”

Marcos also reminded Ali of a monetary bet he made with Joe before the fight. Ali replied with words to the effect that he and Joe had already paid all the dues they owed to one another.

 

I'd have liked Ali's next defence to have been against Marcos, He and his wife were evil despots and megalomaniacs.

 

If you review that fight I would say that was Ali's greatest performance as a puncher. His hands had healed but more importantly he wanted to bury Frazier under the canvas if he could.
Watching those early rounds notice Ali's expression on his face. He wanted payback for Superfight 1. If Ali had stood flat footed and punched like that his whole career he would have crushed alot of guys.
Ali had slipped as a boxer. He couldn't dance all nite like he used to, he was heavier but his handspeed was there.

I don't know what other heavyweight could have stayed in there with him the way he was punching. Especially considering the conditions.

 

He was great enough to beat Frazier, but after that fight he left a lot behind in the ring.

 

Save for Bugner II, (Ali’s last match just prior to the Thrilla), Ali had stopped/KO’d 3 of last 4 opponents.

Those more recent outcomes combined with Frazier’s apparent decline possibly lent to Ali thinking he get could get Joe out of there before the fight could unpack into anything too arduous.

Ali seriously gunned for Joe from rounds 1 to 4. During those rounds Ali caught Frazier with a power left hook that sent Joe hurtling into the ropes.

In another round, after measuring Joe with his left, Ali drilled a straight right into Joe’s head which appeared to make his legs dip badly.

Ali’s likely intent to put Joe out early might explain the 3 part structure in which the fight appeared to play out.

Ali looking to KO Joe early but failing and then being temporarily somewhat gassed by his early round efforts during the second 1/3 of the fight with Joe then coming on like a freight train.

Of course the final act was Ali collecting himself to come on during the last 1/3 or so of the fight.

That mighty final effort again left Ali exhausted by the close of round 14 but poor Joe was simply too damaged and vulnerable to be allowed to come out for what would’ve been the final round of the fight.

 

I believe that quote came from Jerry Izenberg--long time sportswriter for the Newark Star-Ledger. (And that quote absolutely nailed it--the fight ultimately was the "Ali-Frazier" heavyweight crown more than anything else!!)

 

Wow, what a great post!! I think the 'championship of each other' is lost to the mists of my ever more confuddled mind. I have read a lot of 'Big Shug' so it may have been McLlvanney...or maybe Mailer?

I think Ali himself said 'We went to Manilla champions, Joe and me, but we came back as old men...'

 

In hindsight, both fighters should have hung up the gloves after this grueling war!

 

I just rewatched it. The amount of headshots they received was about enough for a lifetime, especially for Joe.

 

Yes for sure. Just not as great.

 

That fight was crazy brutal.