Was Ali's level of athleticism for a HW boxer unprecedented at the time?

Hi Buddy.
Appreciate the confirmation, thanks.
stay safe Bokaj, chat soon.

 

You were not rude. We are all entitled to our opinions. It is all good on this end. {{{Hug!}}} The respect is mutual between you and me. I cannot speak for my late Grandfather, but my guess is that he would say the same.

Personally, in my opinion, I never saw anyone who could avoid punches at the same level that Ali did for over 5 years. His reflexes were amazing! Did he get hit sometimes? Sure he did. He was human. Wladimir Klitschko is a good shout out, as are Larry Holmes, older George Foreman, and Joe Louis. I rank Joe Louis as the #1 Heavyweight of all time, but I still think Prime Muhammad Ali (my #2 all time Heavyweight) could avoid being hit better than Joe. But Joe Louis hit much harder, and, as you said, he faced better competition, in total, during his run.

 

Rounds 2, 3 and 4 vs Chuvalo he was flat footed and/or fighting off the ropes for much of it. His punch volume of very impressive the whole fight, but because he's not moving and dancing for 15 rounds, he gets hit- and hit a lot. I'm not questioning his stamina, especially not in that fight. Just idea he was constantly moving- and not getting hit. Which just isn't true.

I'll have to watch Terrell again as it's been a long time, But i recall him having various spells of that fight 'off' anyway, which is fine, the threat was minimal.

Ali die-hards love the idea that he never got hit (almost as bad as Tyson fans when it comes to the 'prime' thing) and when it's pointed he did (i.e. Chuvalo, Cooper- both fights-, Liston 1, Mildenberger, Folley) the excuse is given that 'well he chose to fight and trade' or 'he had the round off'. That's fine, but can't have it both ways.

 

I will always maintain the version of Ali that fought Zora Folley in 1967 would beat any heavyweight in history. (And it's mind-boggling to think how much BETTER he could have become if he were able to continue his career uninterrupted from April 1967-October 1970!)

 

You are preaching to the choir good sir. I don't think he would have got a whole lot better tho. He was fully matured and in control.

 

Ah, you see, that's easy to explain. He only got hit when he chose to. And sometimes, he felt like getting hit.

 

his style was not a style for an old boxer and he started boxing very early. 25-26 years and we start going downhill. However if he continued his career and faced Frazier in 1971 he would have lost and never got revenge. So that 3 year break makes Ali the Goat and wins against Joe Louis.

 

Ali-Terell was not competitive.

 

A bit strange that you've chosen a fight where he got outhit for 6 rounds and looked disinterested in some early rounds, as your choice for 'best ever', especially when considering he fought an opponent, Nat Fleischer had called "as futile as any challenger going back to Johnny Paycheck".

 

Dunno, didn't live then, but seems like it is now!

 

I have to rewatch the Chuvalo fight because my recollection is that he moved except for that spell in the second.

EDIT: He was on the ropes for 30 seconds in the third also and 10-15 in the fourth, so depends on how you define "much" I guess, Btw; at the end of round 2, when he had his longest flat footed spell, the commentator says "the champ is toying with him". So whether it's silly or not to think that Ali actually wasn't tired already at this stage and stayed in front of Chuvalo because he decided to for other reasons, it doesn't seem to be a very novel one in any case.

That he got hit "a lot" also doesn't jive with my memory. Chuvalo got hit a lot and Ali got hit far less.

As for "Usyk foul"-level Chuvalo did land some for sure, though.

No one is of course saying that he literally never got hit, only in the same sense that they say RJJ never got hit in his prime. Ali probably got hit a bit more than RJJ, but the concept that they were difficult to land clean on is correct in both cases I'd say.

Many of the punches that got called as landed by Chuvalo was rollled with and gracing at best by memory.

 

I dunno--I'm more in line with this quote I found on another boxing thread about Ali's performace that night--more inclined to go in this direction.

"This whole fight, Ali is on another level. So efficient with his punches and footwork and head movement. This is Ali at his best IMO, could dance but also knew how to settle down and sit on his punches while still being mobile. Actually unfair that someone that big can move like that."

 

psst

thats when anabolic steroids starting becoming widely used in sport

just sayin...

 

Folley was a bit past it for Ali, but he was levels ahead of Johnny Paycheck. The former was a legitimate contender, the latter was a journeyman.