Was Ali's level of athleticism for a HW boxer unprecedented at the time?

Of course movie film was in it's infancy when Jeffries ruled the roost, and even if the authorized Jeffries-Sharkey II were to ever resurface, his more vaunted left had been dislocated by wrestler Ernst Roeber in a training accident. (Roeber playfully threw a medicine ball at Jeff, who lifted his left arm to block it, and the ball struck his elbow.) We do have some action footage of Jeff, but what he's doing isn't easily discernable.

However, we do have some vivid training footage of a peak Jeff, his feats of endurance and strength were well documented, and John L. declared Jeff to be the fastest big man he ever saw. He would've done well in events like the Superstars competition. Training partner and rival Corbett was also a superb athlete and conditioning fanatic, but it drove him crazy that Jeff could run longer and faster than himself.

 

Yes, Ali did not win every round in his prime and he was not impossible to hit. But, ****, his speed and agility was something to behold.

 

Sometimes we get so caught up in tradition, ( And it's not a criticism, because I've done it myself)
We miss what's plainly visible.

What you call " wasted motion " was Ali's unique rhythm. It worked for him by throwing off most opponents timing, and distance to target.
Was Ali as technical precise and economical with his offense as Joe Louis?
Of course he wasn't, but I'd pick prime vs prime Ali to beat Louis.
In my opinion, Ali used his better than most atheletiscim that relates directly to the sport he was in,, BOXING to its ultimate conclusion.
That was to win the fight.
He used what worked for him, and his unique abilities.
It's the reason so many of his imitators failed so miserably, they didn't possess Ali's physical ability.
Ali proved in multiple fights he could fight hard for 15rds.
Theirs no better indication of his physicality than that.
Hell, with all the so called superior "training methods " and " bigger" athletes in today's heavyweight boxers , they all seem to need their second wind as early as 6-7 rds, by the 10th -11th rds they're usually barely fighting.

 

Faster feet?
Not a chance.

 

It certainly was, pulling himself out of range the way he did all the time is a waste you made a move not to get hit… but not hit? that’s half the game that’s why I’ll die on the hill Louis had a better defence and footwork - everything was a means to hit the tower guy he didn’t just devote time to solely avoiding a blow.

 

Enry Cooper probably woke him up… he certainly fell back asleep against Oscar Bonavena in his first fight back Bonavena is the size of Artur Beterbiev and most people here think with sense (OB) couldn’t box… so Ali who worked out all through exile and training for the upcoming fight of his life was “too rusty” despite training since he was like 8-9? Or maybe, maybe he wasn’t the “‘master boxer” we think? That Bonavena slug slow and awkward was too “stupid” to fall for his BS and just attacked him instead.

 

He was always mostly stationary against his best opponents all that “up on his toes” flicking worked against his own “Bum of the month types” but against the best he was pretty conventional / stationary with some whacky reflexive stuff thrown in.

 

I don't think that there has been another heavyweight with Ail's level of athleticism either before or since.

If there has been a comparable talent, then they wee too different to make a comparison meaningful.

 

Ali’s performance in the first Liston fight is possibly my favourite.

Excellent point about it being hyperbole that Ali danced for most of the fight - it was really was one of Ali’s more efficient displays - and imo, Ali’s lack of technical proficiencies is also an exaggeration - Ali did a LOT by the book in that fight.

Ali was looking at least as good, probably better, when the rematch began but the fight ended too soon. For mine, it was going to be another ATG performance and a good chance of exceeding Ali’s performance in the first fight.

 

I've always said that Ali and RJJ both knew the fundamentals but chose to use unorthodoxy as part of their style to highlight and fake advantage of their athletic/reflexive advantages.

Unfortunately, many of us fans have no clue about what we are watching and are therefore unable to go against lazy consensus dogmas of certain fighters having no fundamentals as they're being compared against more conventional, economical, slower moving/less explosive fighters. In the first Liston, Ali slips both inside and outside the Liston jab, the first punch he throws is a check hook. In his prime he throws a mix between body and head jabs, blading his body and pivoting and angling off when he jabs to the body and when he's dancing and pivotting, perfectly hiding his chin behind his shoulder and using his feet to get out of range. He blocks shots to the body with elbows, forearms and parries, times Liston's jab and counters and then when he throws combinations, he leads with the jab, doubles the jab and steps around Liston so that by the time he's throwing hookercuts in his combinations, Liston has to shell up as Ali has moved the angle of attack before Liston could counter/adjust properly.

I'm not saying that Ali was technically excellent like Louis in his punching mechanics, he had his own mechanical nuances that were inefficient in his punch delivery for sure, but to suggest that a fighter that won Olympic Gold, boxed since he was a child, had the benefit of exposure to Archie Moore's guidance and others didn't know the rudiments of boxing technique is nonsensical to me. One only had to look at the damage his jab and right cross did to many a fighter's faces, cuts, swollen eyes from the corkscrew jab thrown, even the jarring of Patterson's back by timing him for a whiplash effect that exacerbated Floyd's back issues - the guy knew what he was doing, even if we don't often see it or agree with the methods that he chose to use.

 

Just as an addendum to our visual analysis I have read that Ali spent quite some time after hours in the gym perfecting his punch technique.

I guess if there were any punches anyone thought weren’t exactly by the book, perhaps the least you could say is that they were educated - clearly well practised.

 

I don’t really think his hand speed was that unprecedented for a HW. Joe Louis was lightning fast when stringing combos together. And Floyd Patterson had real fast hands.

It was really Ali’s foot speed and reflexes that were the most exceptional thing in his prime. Nobody could move like him. That combined with his hand speed, solid power (before he developed hand problems, he was an above average puncher and broke opponents down with constant damaging shots), sense of timing, excellent stamina, and ability to ignore physics and throw damaging shots while moving backwards…. That’s why he was the best HW there has ever been in his prime.

 

that was only post-exile. Pre-exile he was real slippery. Unless you were Henry Cooper.

 

Ali is a unique specimen no fighter at Heavyweight in history has had his movement, foot and hand speed and reflexes

The closest I’d say someone has come is Usyk but even he isn’t as fast

 

Excellent post. Will add that the whole "Ali couldn't infight" thing is a bit of a lazy take. He would avoid it as much as he could, but that's not the sama as that he couldn't do it. Not going full revisionist here and say that he was one of the great infighters, but Frazier was and Ali hung quite well with him at times, especially in Manilla, even though Frazier of course got the better of it on some crucial occassions in FOTC.