Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

Like most great trainers, he motivated his fighters well and knew when to give the good advice. It is a mix of calm and timing to be a good trainer and cornerman. He was great at what he did. With Leonard in September of 1981 ,I think his "you're blowing it son" was good timing, but Tommy was tiring from not having gone 15 ever, and Ray saw the opening. Ray pored it on when Tommy was hurt with that right hand. The timing of it looked like Angelo told him pore it on and he did, but had Tommy not been hurt round 13 would have been like round 12.

 

Our opinions don't mean much unless we were trained by him? That would seem to me to be even a more biased viewpoint had he trained us (For many reasons and factors). That's almost like saying, "If we hadn't fight in the ring with Jeffries, how do we really know how great he is?"

Testimony from his fighters says only good things. Ali said he was the best trainer in the world. SRL only has good things to say. Foreman said he wouldn't have won the title back without the great Angelo Dundee (Foreman said a lot, I know. But the track records adds credence to the positive claim).

 

Nice to see one or two of you actually worked with Angelo. I have good memories of him as well. First met him in the mid-'50s when I trained at Stillman's Gym.

After moving to Miami in '58, I trained and boxed for Angelo's 5th St. Gym Team that fought all over Florida. No matter how busy Angelo was with Willie Pastrano (who drove him nuts), he had the gift of making you feel you were the most important fighter in the world -- a HUGE confidence builder.

 

Incredible.

Lets face it, Angelo Dundee is not exactly the guy you'd want to see working in the other corner & he sure didn't lose too many big fights. A yes man doesn't get those results for that duration of time. His guys never seemed to be the guy blown out of there and always gave a good account of themselves even in a loss. Perhaps the Ellis/Frazier bout was a bad one but there's not too many others from about 55-85.

 

I dont know how great Jeffries was, I assume he was very good at least. But I never saw him fight, or saw him on film fighting in his prime.

I assume Dundee was very good trainer at least.
But who am I to say he "wasn't great" or "was great" (as in, one of an "elite group" of the very best) as a trainer behind closed doors. The teacher-student relationship is something an outsider cannot always gauge, and as all good teachers will admit some pupils are just going to excel whoever it is "teaching" them.

As I said before, a great trainer might be one who gets a bullied scared feeble child and gets him to the point of standing up against another kid for 3 rounds or even 3 minutes with some semblance of boxing.
So, with so many unsung great trainers I dont even see the point of debating or canonizing the "great trainers" who are famed or worked with great fighters.

I respect Angelo Dundee 100%. And his corner and cut work is great. But I dont even see the point in separating him (or any of the others) from the community of solid reliable trainers, all of whom should be respected. I'm sure Dundee would know many cornermen and trainers who we've never even heard of who he could tell you were as good as any.

 

Im unaware of this, care to share?

 

I don't see how he wouldn't be considered a great trainer. There's only so much you can fake there.

 

May i ask you a question? Now,personally speaking i think Dundee was a great trainer as there were enough fools in Alis corner doing nothing, but in your opinion, do you think Angelo should have done more to discourage Ali from fighting on when he was clearly deteriorating? I understand Ali was his own man and would do what he wanted anyway, but could Angelo at least threaten not to have anything to do with future fights as i would imagine it would have been clear Alis health was on the wane. Im not having a dig at Dundee, its just that i have given this some thought recently, and knowing after Norton 3 Pacheco made his position clear, and would like to know your honest thoughts. In fairness he showed compassion in the Holmes fight by stopping it (although a lot of people think holmes stopped him or the ref stopped him, it was Dundee who said "im the chief second. im stopping the fight")

 

I think where Dundee is most underrated or overlooked is the fact that he was a great MANAGER.
He's from the old school, where the roles of trainer, chief second, cutman and manager are often rolled into one. And the same guy does all the tasks with expertise.

Dundee chose all of Ali's early opponents and probably had a lot of input all through his career. He did a great job choosing Ray Leonard's opponents too, fighters with good records and status and who looked like risky opponents for young fighters but who were stylistically very beatable. Did a great job with Jimmy Ellis too.

 

Yes I think so. Sometimes the trainer is just as guilty as the fighter of being caught up in the moment or the aura surrounding a great fighter. They dont want the ride to end as much as the fighter doesnt. I dont think that detracts in anyway of him being a great trainer. I also think Angelo was very good at getting the very best out of a fighter, so if Ali wanted to continue he was probably the best man to be in the corner.
I also think that maybe he felt like if Ali was going to go out there at this point in his career he needed to be there to stop the fight or be watching over him. There are very few trainers who can just walk away, and it makes it easier when a fighter doesnt prepare properly for a fight, but in this case Ali was probably still trying to be a fighter even though he looked pretty bad in training.

 

Do yourself a fav, if you like the fight game and read both of Angelo's books.

Their tremendous!

I Only Talk Winning
by Dundee, Angelo; Winters, Mike; Ali, Muhammad (Introduction by); Cosell, Howard
My View from the Corner: A Life in Boxing (Hardcover)
~ Angelo Dundee
Angelo Dundee (Author)

 

Angelo was/is a great motivator, that is his talent, however as a trainer to quote a boxing insider who knew him well "he couldn`t teach a cat to **** in a box". Teaching boxing fundamentals wasn`t Angelo`s strong point, ask anyone in the know and they will tell you as much, however there have been few cornermen who were as good at motivating their charges between rounds as he was.

 

I would say the latter description is more befitting someone like Manny Steward.

Dundee took a guy like Jimmy Ellis, an apparent no-hoper at middleweight, and turned him into a HW titleholder. That's a helluvan achievement to me, much more impressive than guiding someone obviously talented like Ali or Leonard to a title.

 

He was a great trainer. I got the pleasure to meet him once. great guy

 

That pretty much answers my question. Thanks for replying as its great to hear a point of view from people who would have a little insight into the man.